Game Scenario for Discussion

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Do you also check the scorebook before the game when you are the U2?
I would wonder why you are doing another official's duty.

Hmmm...maybe because I am right there by the table and perfectly capable of taking care of it.

See, I can answer a question. Can you?? Answer the question I asked you before...when I turn to the table and take care of it because I am right there, what are you going to do? Run over there and "officially" take care of it? Give me a dirty look and lecture me in the locker room later? What??

[Adam]

Originally Posted by NNJOfficial

As to your other point, when coaches are surveyed as to what they most want from officials, consistency and communication are often the top two items on the list. It never hurts to have good communication, particularly in game-ending situations.

that may be what they ask for, but you'll also notice they get annoyed when you communicate the obvious. They don't need a coach's conference to tell them the obvious.

[Nevadaref]

I'm going to ask you why you are doing something which you are not permitted to do BY RULE.

If you have information for the R, provide it to him and let him handle his business.

For the record, I also would not want you correcting the official score or the number of fouls on a player on your own.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I'm going to ask you why you are doing something which you are not permitted to do BY RULE.

If you have information for the R, provide it to him and let him handle his business.

For the record, I also would not want you correcting the official score or the number of fouls on a player on your own.

There is nothing in the rule book that says I CAN"T fix timing mistakes. And my answer to you when you ask me that question will be "Really? That's what you want to talk about right now?" And then make use of the block feature on Arbiter.

For the record, if one of my partners is right there, I am going to trust him/her to be able to handle things without asking my permission or waving me over there because I have an R next to my name on a sheet of paper.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

There is nothing in the rule book that says I CAN"T fix timing mistakes. And my answer to you when you ask me that question will be "Really? That's what you want to talk about right now?" And then make use of the block feature on Arbiter.

For the record, if one of my partners is right there, I am going to trust him/her to be able to handle things without asking my permission or waving me over there because I have an R next to my name on a sheet of paper.

1. You are wrong. The rule is quite clear in stating that the REFEREE may fix timing errors. Not one single poster on this site would dispute that.

2. You are being stubborn, obstinate, and childish. You insist upon doing this your way rather than how the rules state that it should be handled. Your position is that you are above the rules and don't have to adhere to them when officiating. You cannot defend such a position.

3. I would be pleased if all the officials who refuse to operate by the book and instead administer and call the game however they wish would block me. It would make the games that I work much better.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

1. You are wrong. The rule is quite clear in stating that the REFEREE may fix timing errors. Not one single poster on this site would dispute that.

Actually the R shall correct obvious timing errors. (2-5-5)

So I think we've settled that I should have at least taken my information to the R. Hopefully at that point he would have agreed and then delegated the table chatter to me, thereby meeting his 2-5-5 duty.

Unfortunately in my OP case I think the R would have told me to pack sand. But that's a separate and more philosophical discussion that we've already had.

[APG]

Keep the discussion (disagreement) civil

I think how this situation is handled largely depends on what is expected in your area/conference.

I know that me, personally, will just fix the error myself...CC or not. No need to waste people's time by making a show of going to my partners and/or going to the crew chief to fix the error. I know if I did that with some people, they'd give me the funny eye, and tell me to fix the damn error myself.

I also know that I don't want to use any "crew chief" powers/influence unless needed. If my other official has knowledge of a clock malfunction, I don't want him to waste time coming to me...then me going to the table to take care of it. I would tell him to go to the table, put the correct amount of time on the clock, and let's go.

This is two-fold...one, it speeds up the process. Two...it can help build up the coaches' confidence w/that partner...especially in a league/conference setting where they might see him/her again. Letting that partner take care of that situation shows the coaches that he's on top of even the little things like the clock.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by APG

Keep the discussion (disagreement) civil

I think how this situation is handled largely depends on what is expected in your area/conference.

I know that me, personally, will just fix the error myself...CC or not. No need to waste people's time by making a show of going to my partners and/or going to the crew chief to fix the error. I know if I did that with some people, they'd give me the funny eye, and tell me to fix the damn error myself.

I also know that I don't want to use any "crew chief" powers/influence unless needed. If my other official has knowledge of a clock malfunction, I don't want him to waste time coming to me...then me going to the table to take care of it. I would tell him to go to the table, put the correct amount of time on the clock, and let's go.

This is two-fold...one, it speeds up the process. Two...it can help build up the coaches' confidence w/that partner...especially in a league/conference setting where they might see him/her again. Letting that partner take care of that situation shows the coaches that he's on top of even the little things like the clock.

Well said, APG.

Without trying to be too childish here...you (as the R on the game) are the new L and have taken your position on the endline following a timeout. The throwin is administered by the new T on the far endline. As the ball is being dribbled up the court, the T sounds his/her whistle and loudly calls out "The clock did not start, please take 2 seconds off the clock" and then, once the clock is adjusted, administers another throwin and away we go.

It appears APG and I would be fine with that (as I imagine most of us would). One poster would have us believe that the only way for this to be handled would be for the T and the L to come together and the T tell the R that the clock did not start properly and the the R go to the table and tell them to take 2 seconds off the clock and then everyone go back to their positions and then we can finally get the game going again.

As I said before, the block feature on Arbiter is a wonderful thing. I have absolutely no time nor desire to work with any partner who has that large of a stick up their rectum.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Well said, APG.

Without trying to be too childish here...you (as the R on the game) are the new L and have taken your position on the endline following a timeout. The throwin is administered by the new T on the far endline. As the ball is being dribbled up the court, the T sounds his/her whistle and loudly calls out "The clock did not start, please take 2 seconds off the clock" and then, once the clock is adjusted, administers another throwin and away we go.

It appears APG and I would be fine with that (as I imagine most of us would). One poster would have us believe that the only way for this to be handled would be for the T and the L to come together and the T tell the R that the clock did not start properly and the the R go to the table and tell them to take 2 seconds off the clock and then everyone go back to their positions and then we can finally get the game going again.

As I said before, the block feature on Arbiter is a wonderful thing. I have absolutely no time nor desire to work with any partner who has that large of a stick up their rectum.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Well said, APG.

Without trying to be too childish here...you (as the R on the game) are the new L and have taken your position on the endline following a timeout. The throwin is administered by the new T on the far endline. As the ball is being dribbled up the court, the T sounds his/her whistle and loudly calls out "The clock did not start, please take 2 seconds off the clock" and then, once the clock is adjusted, administers another throwin and away we go.

Disagree a little bit with this. In the OP, this was a summer league game, so I'd probably do exactly as you describe in any rec game. But at the higher levels (pro/college), the officials almost always confer with each other and walk over to the table (usually 2 of the 3) to correct rather than shout instructions. I remember Joey Crawford interrupting Durant's FT to yell at the table to correct something, but that is very rare (and probably not how it should be done).

In a HS game, I'd want to get together quickly and confirm what the clock should be set at. If the OP were a NFHS game, I would go to the R and tell him something like: "I had the timeout before the throw-in ended--the clock shouldn't have started. The clock should read [time]."

Everyone is on the same page and you are not rushing. Some of the best advice I've recieved is that when something seems wrong/odd, don't rush to get things moving. Take your time and make sure everything is right.

[Matt S.]

In my college games, 90% of our pregames include something to the effect of, 'we are all R's, if there's an obvious mistake that doesn't require a discussion, take care of it.'

It's the resumption of play/false/multiple penalties that usually require more communication.

But as someone else said, if you're working with a newer official or in an area that has a certainly philosophy about this stuff, go with the 'when in Rome' theory.

[APG]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

Disagree a little bit with this. In the OP, this was a summer league game, so I'd probably do exactly as you describe in any rec game. But at the higher levels (pro/college), the officials almost always confer with each other and walk over to the table (usually 2 of the 3) to correct rather than shout instructions. I remember Joey Crawford interrupting Durant's FT to yell at the table to correct something, but that is very rare (and probably not how it should be done).

The only time I see officials (at the NBA level) get together before a correction to the clock is if there is some doubt as to how much time to put back on the clock.

Otherwise, if you see some error like the shot clock or the clock not starting, the official that notices it isn't going to waste his time going to the CC before to correct the timing mistake...he does that, and it looks like he has to get permission from Mr. Crew Chief to fix a simple mistake.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by APG

The only time I see officials (at the NBA level) get together before a correction to the clock is if there is some doubt as to how much time to put back on the clock.

Otherwise, if you see some error like the shot clock or the clock not starting, the official that notices it isn't going to waste his time going to the CC before to correct the timing mistake...he does that, and it looks like he has to get permission from Mr. Crew Chief to fix a simple mistake.

i guess that was an incorrect perception on my part based on TV coverage (i watch a lot more on TV than I see in person). Although I don't know if the NBA has similar language as NFHS does either.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Well said, APG.

Without trying to be too childish here...you (as the R on the game) are the new L and have taken your position on the endline following a timeout. The throwin is administered by the new T on the far endline. As the ball is being dribbled up the court, the T sounds his/her whistle and loudly calls out "The clock did not start, please take 2 seconds off the clock" and then, once the clock is adjusted, administers another throwin and away we go.

It appears APG and I would be fine with that (as I imagine most of us would). One poster would have us believe that the only way for this to be handled would be for the T and the L to come together and the T tell the R that the clock did not start properly and the the R go to the table and tell them to take 2 seconds off the clock and then everyone go back to their positions and then we can finally get the game going again.

As I said before, the block feature on Arbiter is a wonderful thing. I have absolutely no time nor desire to work with any partner who has that large of a stick up their rectum.

Stop being obtuse. It is obvious that your ego needs the R next to your name and that your feelings get hurt when you aren't assigned as such. Get over it and follow what the rules book tells you to do.
The rules state that the R corrects any timing errors, so give him the info and let him do so.
At the HS level the timers and scorers aren't always experienced and can easily get confused or intimidated by coaches or spectators into altering something or doing something which they shouldn't. For example, how many times have you seen a HS timer stop the clock on a made basket with only a few seconds remaining? We know that it shouldn't stop, but those TV-watching dad's are all yelling at them to stop the clock. How about the coach who tells them to change Joey's number from 20 to 30?

The fewer people to whom the timer and scorer need listen, the better.
I would much rather be able to tell these people before the game starts that if a problem arises, get my attention, and don't make any change in the time or score without talking to me first. If the officials want you to change something, I'll come over and let you know.
I believe that having a single person designated for this makes direction much clearer to the table crew and has the benefit of keeping the entire crew on the same page. And guess what?--That's how the rules are written.
The NFHS committee has years of experience and decades of trail and error have gone into the crafting of these rules. They have a purpose greater than your fragile ego and you don't know better than all of those people.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The rules state that the R corrects any timing errors ...

I'm playing devil's advocate here. Does the rule mean that only the referee can make a final decision to correct any timing error, or does it mean that only the referee can communicate that information to the table, or, to really push my devil's advocate point, does it mean that only the referee, not the timer, can physically touch the scoreboard controller, to change the time?

The last is absurd, but I do believe that the is wiggle room in there to allow the referee to make any final timing change decisions, and to allow the umpire to communicate that information to the table.