NCAA Women's Tournament Officials

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Rich

I work for the schools, but I couldn't imagine anyone complaining that they were sent a female official. I'm just trying to imagine that conversation. Personally, I've scheduled females for some of the toughest male coaches to work for that I have. Doesn't bother me a bit if they don't like it, either -- cause they likely won't officially say anything about it.

If you remember, someone here in the forums who works for an association in another part of my state posted that his association was told (off the record, of course), not to send female officials to work BV games. And he said his association leadership would adhere to the request for fear of losing the contract.

And I used to have a female co-worker who is also a HS official. She had worked the GV portion of a GV/BV DH. In the BV game, a member of the crew who came into the game ill had to bow out after the 1st quarter, so she volunteered to step in. After the game, she called her assignor to let him know the situation, and she got reprimanded for stepping into the game. The gist of the conversation was that females do not work BV in that association.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If you remember, someone here in the forums who works for an association in another part of my state posted that his association was told (off the record, of course), not to send female officials to work BV games. And he said his association leadership would adhere to the request for fear of losing the contract.

And I used to have a female co-worker who is also a HS official. She had worked the GV portion of a GV/BV DH. In the BV game, a member of the crew who came into the game ill had to bow out after the 1st quarter, so she volunteered to step in. After the game, she called her assignor to let him know the situation, and she got reprimanded for stepping into the game. The gist of the conversation was that females do not work BV in that association.

Fortunately, I don't have those concerns.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by Adam

I can tell you in my association, women are getting their shot at varsity boys' games.

Originally Posted by Rich

...but I couldn't imagine anyone complaining that they were sent a female official...

I have second-hand knowledge, from individuals directly involved on both the officiating and assigning sides, at both the local high school and women's junior college levels (shared with me in confidence at both levels), that those conversations and statements do and are happening, still, as recently as the last two seasons. So it does still happen. Maybe not everywhere, but in some places. And to be clear, I'm referencing head coaches openly stating to assignors and officials that they do not want women officials on their games.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Well, here in good ole VA, I have seen at least 3 good female officials get denied boys HS games, while some horrible, and I mean horrible, male officials get top of the line games.

What I do know, is that if the conversation were about blacks not getting certain assignments, the phrase "race card" would have jumped off a couple folks keyboards real quick. What makes complaining about a lack of males getting certain assignments any different than a lack of blacks getting certain assignments?

To me it's playing the "gender card".

All true, and the NCAAW assignors doing the reverse isn't proper either.
I've seen some quality male officials denied spots in favor of females who "can be trained or developed."
It is very obvious that a single criterion was the determining factor.

[JRutledge]

I think it is even worse on the Women's side because there seems to be not only an issue of gender, but what you identify yourself as too. Because it does not seem that the powers that be and what they claim to be is not in the complete background and who ends up getting assignments. I think there is something wrong when the same person works the title game over and over and over again. One of the officials on the Men's side worked the Championship game two years in a row and people thought that was out of line. But to have a certain official on this side work every year, there is something not right. There has to be someone else available or that deserves a chance at some point. And this kind of politics is one reason I never wanted to work Women's basketball. That distinction was obvious way back when I would go to those NCAA Meetings in Chicago in the early 2000s.

Peace

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think it is even worse on the Women's side because there seems to be not only an issue of gender, but what you identify yourself as too. Because it does not seem that the powers that be and what they claim to be is not in the complete background and who ends up getting assignments. I think there is something wrong when the same person works the title game over and over and over again. One of the officials on the Men's side worked the Championship game two years in a row and people thought that was out of line. But to have a certain official on this side work every year, there is something not right. There has to be someone else available or that deserves a chance at some point. And this kind of politics is one reason I never wanted to work Women's basketball. That distinction was obvious way back when I would go to those NCAA Meetings in Chicago in the early 2000s.

Peace

I'm almost afraid to ask, but...please clarify...?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

I'm almost afraid to ask, but...please clarify...?

Not going there in this forum.

Peace

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Don't get me wrong, they are denied. But often they know this going in and quickly get over it and move on to the other level if they have the opportunity. They leave the high school level behind very quickly. I never would suggest that they were given an equal opportunity on the boy's side of the isle.

That's true, all of the good female officials (the ones who want to move up anyway) move up right away and don't stick around long enough to get BV games.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by AremRed

That's true, all of the good female officials (the ones who want to move up anyway) move up right away and don't stick around long enough to get BV games.

In the past, it certainly was true that the good female officials moved on to college and gave up HS before they could move to boys HS but, to be fair, many good male officials in our area also moved up somewhat slowly too. The pipeline just moved slowly.

However, that is no longer the case in our organization. Good officials, both male and female, can move up more quickly now.

We just had a relatively junior female official (about 4-5 years experience but VERY good) that gets a strong mix of boys varsity games get selected to work the Oregon Boys 5A state championship game.

What may have been true in the past is just no longer the case. Qualified officials advance quickly. Maybe this achievement will stop the unqualified females from claiming they are not moving up because they're female.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

In the past, it certainly was true that the good female officials moved on to college and gave up HS before they could move to boys HS but, to be fair, many good male officials in our area also moved up somewhat slowly too. The pipeline just moved slowly.

However, that is no longer the case in our organization. Good officials, both male and female, can move up more quickly now.

We just had a relatively junior female official (about 4-5 years experience but VERY good) that gets a strong mix of boys varsity games get selected to work the Oregon Boys 5A state championship game.

What may have been true in the past is just no longer the case. Qualified officials advance quickly. Maybe this achievement will stop the unqualified females from claiming they are not moving up because they're female.

I do not think he is referring to moving up in high school. I know I was not talking about moving up in high school. And it is rare where I live for anyone within 15 years to even get a State Final opportunity and usually it is much more than that before someone gets their first shot at that level. But in my areas many females never even try to work a the playoffs as they are often working a lot of college. One of my good friends almost exclusively works college ball as she does not even qualify to work high school playoffs.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by AremRed

That's true, all of the good female officials (the ones who want to move up anyway) move up right away and don't stick around long enough to get BV games.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not think he is referring to moving up in high school.

Peace

Not sure where else they might stick around long enough to work BV.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And it is rare where I live for anyone within 15 years to even get a State Final opportunity and usually it is much more than that before someone gets their first shot at that level.

It is used to be that way here too in a lot of cases but some changes were made to give capable officials a better chance of working in the tournament (quaterfinals and beyond) than in the past.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

But in my areas many females never even try to work a the playoffs as they are often working a lot of college. One of my good friends almost exclusively works college ball as she does not even qualify to work high school playoffs.

Peace

That isn't unusual here. There are often people that get picked up for college for one reason or another than are not always the best officials and some great officials don't work the college route for various reasons.

[JRutledge]

Well most people that get into this do not stick around long anyway. But if they get to the 5 year mark, then if they are given an opportunity to make more money or to get better opportunities, they take advantage of it. It might actually keep them in the game. And since there are so few women in the first place, they are often not going to stay working high school for less and considerably less money. Money might not be everything but it is a motivation in other aspects of life. And when they will give you a shot to work college playoffs as well and even a reasonable opportunity to work the D1 level, high school is not going to be a priority for very much longer. We have male officials that get their college opportunities and soon the high school level takes a back seat. Not sure why that would be unusual or anything hard to understand.

I belong to one of my associations and we might have 5 female member out of 200 or more. I can tell you that almost all of them work college ball. And I know more women who if they work a high school game, it is only as a favor or to fill out a hole in their schedule.

Peace

[Zoochy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

One of the problems with this who is assigned, is female officials often get college opportunities they would never get at the same rate on any other level. There was a female officials that worked the McDonald's All-American game this past year that only had like 3 or 4 years total officiating experience. There is hardly any such equivalent on the Men's side regardless of gender. And when a female officials is snatched up, they are given a full schedule of college. Heck I would rather work for $160 or more on a regular basis too, instead of working for $60 in a similarly packed gym.

It is also very rare that female officials get assigned the boy's side, but heck they hardly do high school anyway if they are moved as fast as they often are moved.

Peace

Are you talking about Natalie S.?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Zoochy

Are you talking about Natalie S.?

Not sure of her name, but I read a report and was told something about one of the officials. I know one the officials very well and her husband worked the boys game that night too.

Peace

[Zoochy]

I did not see the game, but a female from our area worked the McDonald's All American game in Chicago.