Blarge

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Spence

I've always understood that on a blarge where the shot went in the basket does NOT count IF there was player control at the time of the foul.

However, I'm not sure how I justify that from the rulebook.

When we report the fouls we use the double foul signal, correct?

I can't find where it says that the basket does not count on a double foul. I see 4.19.8 C where it says it DOES count IF the ball was released prior to the foul.

Help me out.

The simple answer is that you've "always understood" this incorrectly. The NFHS casebook ruling has been around for many years. The basket counts if released before the collision. If the ball was not yet released when the contact occurred, the double foul makes the ball dead and there is no try. As many others have previously written in this thread from last season, the ball is awarded to Team B when the basket counts and awarded back to Team A when the crash happens prior to the release.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Spence

I've always understood that on a blarge where the shot went in the basket does NOT count IF there was player control at the time of the foul.

However, I'm not sure how I justify that from the rulebook.

A couple of things here. First of all you are kind of jumbling many different things into one. Let us take one at a time.

Originally Posted by Spence

When we report the fouls we use the double foul signal, correct?

A "blarge" is two different officials making a call. Both signalling and the rulebook states that we cannot just ignore or take one back. You would not report a double foul initially as both officials would have to report their individual fouls. I guess at the end of it you could give the signal, but I do not think that is how I would do it (or have done it in the past) at the spot. That is all semantics as this is not supposed to happen in the first place.

Originally Posted by Spence

I can't find where it says that the basket does not count on a double foul. I see 4.19.8 C where it says it DOES count IF the ball was released prior to the foul.

If you read the case play and the ruling, nothing says that you would not count the basket. In Situation A, the ball goes in the basket and the basket is considered successful. Also in the play in question the ball was released before the "double foul." So you do not kill the ball because a foul does not automatically make the ball dead after a release. That is a basic fundamental in the rules actually. And since you do not have a PC foul by definition (you cannot on a double foul) it is treated like any other foul when the ball is clearly released. It would be no different if A1 shoots the ball and while the ball is in the air, A2 and B1 both foul each other and a double foul is called. You would allow the basket to count if it goes in and give the ball at the POI which would give Team B the ball. If the shot is missed, the POI is the AP situation as no one has possession.

I hope that kind of helps.

Peace

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

A "blarge" is two different officials making a call. Both signalling and the rulebook states that we cannot just ignore or take one back. You would not report a double foul initially as both officials would have to report their individual fouls.

Who would the third official switch with?

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by PG_Ref

Who would the third official switch with?

I'm pretty sure that would be the least of their concerns at that moment...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by PG_Ref

Who would the third official switch with?

Are you sure this is a 3 person game?

Peace

[Dad]

I've never had a blarge, yet, but I doubt pregame does much good. I have no statistics to back it up, but I'm guessing the majority of officials when they go to blow their whistle aren't thinking about the pregame. Some of us just love to show our block/charge. Habits are habits.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Dad

I've never had a blarge, yet, but I doubt pregame does much good. I have no statistics to back it up, but I'm guessing the majority of officials when they go to blow their whistle aren't thinking about the pregame. Some of us just love to show our block/charge. Habits are habits.

Pregame can help, if nothing else it's a reminder and may help slow down. You're right, though, it's not going to prevent it. Does anyone honestly think the NCAA guys who do this every year didn't address it in pregame?

I've had one, in a summer game. We were pretty slow on the prelim the rest of the game.

I've also had a play where L and T had the same call (PC) and both reported at the same time, without knowing it, while the C stood back and observed them. He told them at half time.

They were both table side. L walked around opposite while T just turned around to report. That was poor awareness, but we got lucky.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Adam

Pregame can help, if nothing else it's a reminder and may help slow down. You're right, though, it's not going to prevent it. Does anyone honestly think the NCAA guys who do this every year didn't address it in pregame?

I've had one, in a summer game. We were pretty slow on the prelim the rest of the game.

I've also had a play where L and T had the same call (PC) and both reported at the same time, without knowing it, while the C stood back and observed them. He told them at half time.

They were both table side. L walked around opposite while T just turned around to report. That was poor awareness, but we got lucky.

That could've come off wrong. I didn't mean don't pregame it, just saying I doubt it helps much.

C probably got a great laugh here.

[Rich]

It's just having good habits and practices. Not sure a pregame can instill those.

We had a triple whistle on a blocking foul last week. I was the C and the L was a bit late getting to his spot so I (and the T, it turns out) hit the whistle rather than giving the L an extra tick.

Both of us posted, and the L came in and called a block. Neither one of us on the outside signaled anything (it *was* a block).

All we ended up doing is laughing at each other for the next 30 seconds or so.

[Camron Rust]

Had one last night...and we messed it up.

2-person crew and I was lead on a break. Play at the basket coming in from the opposite side. Defender running down the middle of the court comes across and tries to set up just inside the paint.

I was ahead of the play and at the endline. I have a block for him leaning sideways into the shooter to make contact. He makes the shot, I come out counting the basket and ready to go with a block. My partner had made it down the court quickly also had a whistle and was already signaling PC.

The T should have been slow to show, of course, but that didn't happen. Now we have to administer it properly.

We go with the double foul. We counted the bucket since, as a double foul, it is no longer a PC foul. As a double foul, we were to go with the POI. And that is where I messed it up. Forgetting that the made basket should have made the POI be a throwin for team B, I ruled that he POI was a dead ball with neither team in control and went with arrow. I botched it. That happened to give the ball to the team that made the shot.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

.... it is no longer a PC foul.

Never thought of this before, but it's all the more reason to do this the way the NFHS editor and I have said all along. If signals are the key, and now it's not a PC after all, the signals are meaningless, which means it's now a compromise. So why is this any different than going with one call?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Never thought of this before, but it's all the more reason to do this the way the NFHS editor and I have said all along. If signals are the key, and now it's not a PC after all, the signals are meaningless, which means it's now a compromise. So why is this any different than going with one call?

Your question is no more different now than it was 10 years ago.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Your question is no more different now than it was 10 years ago.

The difference is the NFHS editor says the exact same thing I've always said. Young officials hearing all this for the first time might want to know that, even if you don't.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The difference is the NFHS editor says the exact same thing I've always said. Young officials hearing all this for the first time might want to know that, even if you don't.

You asked the editor a loaded question and she only replied to you. If that was some sort of "official" stance by the NFHS we would have seen it by now.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

You asked the editor a loaded question and she only replied to you. If that was some sort of "official" stance by the NFHS we would have seen it by now.

The "loaded" question you speak of, for those who may not know, was this.

The subject line of the e-mail was Case book 4.19.8c. The question was: Some associates and I have discussed this case which involves two officials making conflicting calls on a block charge play at great length and still have disagreement about when both fouls must be reported and when one may defer to the other.

Her answer: If there are double whistles, the two officials should get together and discuss what was seen and which may have come first. In fact when there are two whistles the officials should immediately hold the signal for the infraction and have the discussion. If one defers to the other then the signal is given and the official moves to the table to report. If they cannot come to an agreement, then they rule a double foul and both players will report (it does not matter who reports first). Ruling a double foul on a block/charge would not be the thing to do.