Blarge

[All_Heart]

What type of foul is a blarge?
Is it a double personal?

Is there a place in the college rule book that discusses double whistles like blarges?

[ChuckElias]

It is a double personal foul, yes. And if the shot was released before the contact, it counts if it goes in.

The reference is AR 4 on page 107 of the NCAA rulebook. The case is very poorly written, however. In neither (a) nor (b), is it stated whether the try has been released at the time of the contact. The ruling says that the goal counts in (b), so we have to assume that it was released.

But what about (a)? If the try was NOT released, why are we going to the AP arrow? On a double foul, don't we give the ball back to the team in control? If the shot hasn't been released, then A1 is still in control. Shouldn't Team A get the ball with the unexpired time?

[mj]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
It is a double personal foul, yes. And if the shot was released before the contact, it counts if it goes in.


But what about (a)? If the try was NOT released, why are we going to the AP arrow? On a double foul, don't we give the ball back to the team in control? If the shot hasn't been released, then A1 is still in control. Shouldn't Team A get the ball with the unexpired time?

That is a hell of a question Chuck...

[All_Heart]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
It is a double personal foul, yes. And if the shot was released before the contact, it counts if it goes in.

The reference is AR 4 on page 107 of the NCAA rulebook. The case is very poorly written, however. In neither (a) nor (b), is it stated whether the try has been released at the time of the contact. The ruling says that the goal counts in (b), so we have to assume that it was released.

But what about (a)? If the try was NOT released, why are we going to the AP arrow? On a double foul, don't we give the ball back to the team in control? If the shot hasn't been released, then A1 is still in control. Shouldn't Team A get the ball with the unexpired time?

Great question! Let me know if you find out anything more on this. I have a buddy that is using 6-3AR 4 to show that the shot clock resets and I'm saying that it should not reset and the ball should go to the team in control.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by All_Heart
I have a buddy that is using 6-3AR 4 to show that the shot clock resets and I'm saying that it should not reset and the ball should go to the team in control.

You are correct. See 2-14-7f

[All_Heart]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

You are correct. See 2-14-7f

Yes but 6-3AR 4(a) contradicts that by saying it goes to the AP with a reset.

It looks like 6-3AR4(a) is saying that in the case of a blarge or a double foul that is called by two officials that you go to the AP with a reset. The key being that two different officials made the call.

Situation:
A2 & B2 are pushing each other with A1 in control of the ball. Lead calls a foul on A2 and Center calls a foul on B2 at the same time. This would fall under 6-3 AR 4(a) and you would go to the arrow with a reset of the shot clock. But if Lead calls a double foul then you would give the ball to Team A at the spot of the foul and no reset of the shot clock. For high school you would give the ball to Team A at the spot closest to where A1 was when the foul was called.

This just doesn't sound right because it is the same play on the floor just different if 1 or 2 officials make the call.

[Dan_ref]

A.R. 4. (Men) A1 drives to the basket and (a) the referee calls a player-control foul and
an umpire calls a block or; (b) the referee calls a charge and an umpire calls a block.
RULING: This is uncharacteristic of a double personal foul where one official adjudicates
the obviously committed fouls against two opponents. In (a) and (b) the two officials
disagree that the fouls occurred simultaneously. In (a) the alternating-possession
arrow shall be used and the ball shall be awarded at a designated spot nearest to
where the foul occurred. When the ball is awarded to either Team A or Team B, there
shall be a reset of the shot clock. To award the ball to Team A with the expired time
instead of using the alternating-possession arrow would be unfair, since one of the
fouls in question may have been committed when A1 was in control of the ball. In (b)
although the two officials disagree as to whether there was a charge or a block, the
ball was released by A1 and the goal shall count. During a try in flight there is no team
control. The alternating-possession arrow shall be used and the ball shall be awarded at a designated spot nearest to where the foul occurred. Since there is no team control,
there shall be a reset of the shot clock when the ball is awarded to either Team A or
Team B.

Yes, very poorly worded but I believe the first sentence gives the rationale for handlng a blarge differently from "normal" double fouls.

[ronny mulkey]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Yes, very poorly worded but I believe the first sentence gives the rationale for handlng a blarge differently from "normal" double fouls.

Dan or Chuck,

The NCAA ruling in (b) is very different than the same play in the Fed. So, what is the ruling in Fed on the blarge when the ball is not yet released?

Mulk

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ronny mulkey
[/B]

The NCAA ruling in (b) is very different than the same play in the Fed. So, what is the ruling in Fed on the blarge when the ball is not yet released?

[/B][/QUOTE]Double foul. Ball is dead immediately as per rule 6-7-5. Play is resumed at the POI, which was the ball in possession of the shooter. Iow, the shooter's team gets a spot throw-in
at the closest spot to where the double foul occurred.

Casebook play4.19.8SitC; Rules 7-5-9 and 4-36-2(a).

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 22nd, 2006 at 11:38 AM]

[ronny mulkey]

JR,

I haven't seen a casebook play or interp that addresses the specific issue of the blarge when the ball is not yet released. Is there not, at least, any forum discussion on this play at all similar to the NCAA's opinion that a blarge is treated a little differently than the single official ruled double foul?

Mulk

[All_Heart]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Iow, the shooter's team gets a spot throw-in
at the closest spot to where the double foul occurred.

Casebook play4.19.8SitC; Rules 7-5-9 and 4-36-2(a).

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 22nd, 2006 at 11:38 AM]

This might confuse someone because the ball was at the spot of the foul but if the ball was at the division line while a double foul took place near the endline then the spot throw-in will be at the division line. This is high school. College would be at the spot of the double foul.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by ronny mulkey
Is there not, at least, any forum discussion on this play at all similar to the NCAA's opinion that a blarge is treated a little differently than the single official ruled double foul?

As far as I know, there is not. In FED, this is a double personal foul and we go to the POI. I've not heard any case or even discussion about treating it differently.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ronny mulkey

I haven't seen a casebook play or interp that addresses the specific issue of the blarge when the ball is not yet released. Is there not, at least, any forum discussion on this play at all similar to the NCAA's opinion that a blarge is treated a little differently than the single official ruled double foul?

Ron, there is no specific case play, but the NFHS uses the exact same rules on a blarge as they do on any double-foul. That's because a blarge is a double foul. I'll walk through 'em again (it's a good refresher for me, and I also just put this on the agenda to talk about at our next meeting):

- Rule 4-19-8(a) gives you the definition of a double foul/blarge.
- Rule 6-7-7 sez that the ball becomes dead when a foul occurs. That includes double fouls. None of the exceptions listed at the end of R6-7 will apply either.
- Rule 7-5-7 tells you how to resume after a double personal foul--i.e. resume at the POI.
- Rule 4-36-2(a) tells you that the POI is a throw-in to the team that had control when the double-foul was called-- i.e. the shooter's team. If the ball was still in the shooter's hand, he had team control.

Iow, you gotta know all those rules and how to put 'em together to end up with the right call.

Is that what you were looking for?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by All_Heart

This might confuse someone because the ball was at the spot of the foul but if the ball was at the division line while a double foul took place near the endline then the spot throw-in will be at the division line. This is high school. College would be at the spot of the double foul.

Yup, I certainly shoulda put down the the throw-in was at the closest spot to where the ball was when the double-foul occurred.

[ronny mulkey]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Ron, there is no specific case play, but the NFHS uses the exact same rules on a blarge as they do on any double-foul. That's because a blarge is a double foul. I'll walk through 'em again (it's a good refresher for me, and I also just put this on the agenda to talk about at our next meeting):

- Rule 4-19-8(a) gives you the definition of a double foul/blarge.
- Rule 6-7-7 sez that the ball becomes dead when a foul occurs. That includes double fouls. None of the exceptions listed at the end of R6-7 will apply either.
- Rule 7-5-7 tells you how to resume after a double personal foul--i.e. resume at the POI.
- Rule 4-36-2(a) tells you that the POI is a throw-in to the team that had control when the double-foul was called-- i.e. the shooter's team. If the ball was still in the shooter's hand, he had team control.

Iow, you gotta know all those rules and how to put 'em together to end up with the right call.

Is that what you were looking for?

JR,

Exactly. Thanks. Down here, we are using some Women's college mechanics and the Fed. Don't really know when to apply which. We begin our sectionals Thursday and our pre-tournament/pre-game should be fun. 12 refs from 4 different associations. Several Women's college folks in there, as well.

Mulk