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Old Thu Jan 29, 2015, 09:44am
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Substitutes Following Technical Foul

Does anyone have a rule (or case book) reference for allowing substitutes in following a technical foul? 3-3-1C specifically mentions when subs are allowed for PERSONAL FOULS.

Since a substitute may enter to shoot FT's for a T, would it follow that ANY subs should be beckoned prior to the first, prior to the second, or prior to the throw in at mid-court? It would make sense to allow ANY subs prior to the first FT as that would be a good time for a coach to get a hot-head off the court following an unsporting T.

Had this come up in a Boys V game last night and I don't think we handled it properly. We didn't allow subs until AFTER the second FT because none of them were coming in to shoot FT's and none were replacing a hot-head.
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Old Thu Jan 29, 2015, 10:02am
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I was looking up the rules on this just a couple of weeks ago. I don't think there's actually anything preventing bringing in subs at any time the ball is dead during technical FTs.
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Old Thu Jan 29, 2015, 10:11am
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Originally Posted by Bad Zebra View Post
Does anyone have a rule (or case book) reference for allowing substitutes in following a technical foul? 3-3-1C specifically mentions when subs are allowed for PERSONAL FOULS.
What you cite re. that rule is correct. However, the EXCEPTION immediately following seems to open the door for allowing all subs in if/when the second technical free throw will be attempted by a sub who'd need to enter the game:
"When a player is required by rule to be replaced prior to administering the free throw(s), then all other substitutes who have legally reported may also enter the game." By rule, a player is required to be replaced when a legal sub properly reports to enter a one of the five allowed to shoot the second throw.
This rule is, after all, a measure to efficiently utilize time. No time is wasted on the other subs if the necessary sub is brought in to shoot the second throw.
Right?
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Old Thu Jan 29, 2015, 10:30am
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Originally Posted by Bad Zebra View Post
Does anyone have a rule (or case book) reference for allowing substitutes in following a technical foul? 3-3-1C specifically mentions when subs are allowed for PERSONAL FOULS.

Since a substitute may enter to shoot FT's for a T, would it follow that ANY subs should be beckoned prior to the first, prior to the second, or prior to the throw in at mid-court? It would make sense to allow ANY subs prior to the first FT as that would be a good time for a coach to get a hot-head off the court following an unsporting T.

Had this come up in a Boys V game last night and I don't think we handled it properly. We didn't allow subs until AFTER the second FT because none of them were coming in to shoot FT's and none were replacing a hot-head.
BZ
The only rule that says subs have to wait until before or after the final free throw is 3-3-1C. As you point out, that rule says for PERSONAL foul free throws. If you are shooting TECHNICAL foul free throws a sub can be brought in before the first free throw and before the second free throw. no restrictions except if the player had been replaced the clock would need to run etc. ordinary rules.

Freddy is citing the exception to the substitution rule dealing with PERSONAL fouls. If A1 has reported and is at the table, A2 is fouled on the shot and awarded 2 shots but unable to shoot because of injury a sub has to come in to shoot them. Since A1 is already at the table and has already reported before A2 needed to be replaced you can let him in. If A2 doesn't need to be replaced then A1 has to wait until prior to the last free throw or after if made etc. thx

Last edited by BigCat; Thu Jan 29, 2015 at 10:32am.
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Old Thu Jan 29, 2015, 10:31am
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This rule is, after all, a measure to efficiently utilize time. No time is wasted on the other subs if the necessary sub is brought in to shoot the second throw.
Right?
Concur, but my real question is: Should we allow subs that have properly reported at ANY POINT in the free throw process for a T? Even though none of them are coming in to shoot? Further, should we allow subs early in the process to get a hot head off the floor? I'm just looking for rule basis to justify such action.
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Old Thu Jan 29, 2015, 10:36am
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If you are shooting TECHNICAL foul free throws a sub can be brought in before the first free throw and before the second free throw. no restrictions except if the player had been replaced the clock would need to run etc. ordinary rules.
Thanks...this is the common sense application. I was just wondering if anyone knew of a rule or case reference to verify.

Further, my crew last night made two subs wait until after the second FT for the T because neither was coming in to shoot. I contend that we should have let them in as soon as they reported properly.
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Old Thu Jan 29, 2015, 10:48am
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Originally Posted by Bad Zebra View Post
Thanks...this is the common sense application. I was just wondering if anyone knew of a rule or case reference to verify.

Further, my crew last night made two subs wait until after the second FT for the T because neither was coming in to shoot. I contend that we should have let them in as soon as they reported properly.
Yes, they should have been allowed in. The rule reference would be simply be 3-1. Sub reports giving number. then 3-2, sub comes in when beckoned. normal substitution. If you have free throws for personal fouls you say he must wait until before or after last free throw. On technical fouls there is no reason not to beckon them unless they had been removed and clock had not run etc…reported late if coming out of timeout etc.

Technical fouls aren't personal fouls. 4-19. that should take care of it. good luck.
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Old Thu Jan 29, 2015, 11:17am
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By rule, subs should be allowed in anytime they have properly reported and the ball is dead with the clock stopped. The only exceptions are during multiple personal foul free throws (as discussed) and timeouts (reporting after the warning horn).
So, the coach could have subs come in after you report the foul, after the first free throw, and after the last free throw.
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Old Thu Jan 29, 2015, 11:25am
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In the big scheme of things this isn't that huge of a mix up. I wouldn't say anything to my partner until a TO or between quarters in this case. Not like I'm going to change his mind either way.
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Old Thu Jan 29, 2015, 11:34am
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BTW

NCAAM says for technicals and flagrant you can bring them in before the first or after the last.

Last edited by BigCat; Thu Jan 29, 2015 at 11:38am.
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Old Thu Jan 29, 2015, 12:54pm
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Originally Posted by Adam View Post
By rule, subs should be allowed in anytime they have properly reported and the ball is dead with the clock stopped. The only exceptions are during multiple personal foul free throws (as discussed) and timeouts (reporting after the warning horn).
So, the coach could have subs come in after you report the foul, after the first free throw, and after the last free throw.
That's a good way to look at it...It makes sense that substitutions be allowed at anytime as long as they are properly reported...and just remember the exceptions...FT for personal fouls or after horn on time out.

We didn't handle it correctly last night but it was a minor gaffe. I raised the issue after the game. We talked it through and realized we probably erred. No biggie, but we won't make that mistake again.

Thanks guys.
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Old Thu Jan 29, 2015, 07:41pm
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Old Fri Jan 30, 2015, 12:58am
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Originally Posted by Bad Zebra View Post
That's a good way to look at it...It makes sense that substitutions be allowed at anytime as long as they are properly reported...and just remember the exceptions...FT for personal fouls or after horn on time out.

We didn't handle it correctly last night but it was a minor gaffe. I raised the issue after the game. We talked it through and realized we probably erred. No biggie, but we won't make that mistake again.

Thanks guys.
Probably the best way to learn most rules. Minor errors that have no real impact on the game.
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