The scorer's table and the referee crew

[Raymond]

I was going to respond off the cuff, but I guess the timing of the events is pertinent.

At some point there will be a T for adding that player to the book, unless he is all of a sudden going to go from starting to not playing at all.

I've never thought about the timing of a T for not having the proper starters designated in the book.

[Raymond]

Learned something new today. Here is the case play in regards of when to penalize for incorrect starter being designated:


3.2.2 SITUATION F:

Team A designates No. 32 as a starter by the 10-minute timeframe prior to the game. In (a), as the teams take the floor for the opening jump ball, the scorer recognizes that No. 34 is on court instead of No. 32 for Team A and notifies the officials. In (b), following about two minutes of play in the first quarter, a time-out is called. The scorer notifies the officials that although Team A No. 32 was a designated starter, No. 34 started instead and is still in the game.

RULING: In (a), if Team A’s coach replaces No. 34 for the correct designated starter, No. 32, no penalty is assessed. If Team A’s coach elects to start the game with No. 34 instead of No. 32, a technical foul is assessed to Team A for changing a designated starter. In (b), no penalty is assessed. The infraction had to be discovered and penalized before the ball became live to start the game. Once the ball became live, it was too late to penalize for this specific infraction. (3-2-2a; 10-1-2a Penalty)

[bbodb1]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Learned something new today. Here is the case play in regards of when to penalize for incorrect starter being designated:


3.2.2 SITUATION F:

Team A designates No. 32 as a starter by the 10-minute timeframe prior to the game. In (a), as the teams take the floor for the opening jump ball, the scorer recognizes that No. 34 is on court instead of No. 32 for Team A and notifies the officials. In (b), following about two minutes of play in the first quarter, a time-out is called. The scorer notifies the officials that although Team A No. 32 was a designated starter, No. 34 started instead and is still in the game.

RULING: In (a), if Team A’s coach replaces No. 34 for the correct designated starter, No. 32, no penalty is assessed. If Team A’s coach elects to start the game with No. 34 instead of No. 32, a technical foul is assessed to Team A for changing a designated starter. In (b), no penalty is assessed. The infraction had to be discovered and penalized before the ball became live to start the game. Once the ball became live, it was too late to penalize for this specific infraction. (3-2-2a; 10-1-2a Penalty)

I thought that was the case but I wasn't sure. Thanks for the info BNR.

With that in mind, let me ask this follow up question. What should the table do in this situation - if we are sure of the rule?

Please understand I am NOT asking this question in an attempt to be a referee at the table - should the table (sort of quietly ask) the referee are they sure of the procedure in this situation?

[La Rikardo]

Originally Posted by bbodb1

With that in mind, let me ask this follow up question. What should the table do in this situation - if we are sure of the rule?

Please understand I am NOT asking this question in an attempt to be a referee at the table - should the table (sort of quietly ask) the referee are they sure of the procedure in this situation?

2-11-2 says one of the duties of the scorer is to notify the nearer official when there is an infraction of the rules *pertaining to submission of the roster, substitutions or numbers of players. IMO, this situation falls under the category of "pertaining to submission of the roster." I would notify the officials that an infraction of the rules has occurred and provide an explanation of what has occurred. It is not the scorer's duty to determine the penalty for that infraction. If you have informed the officials of the infraction, you have done your job. If they botch the enforcement of the penalty for the infraction (or fail to penalize the infraction at all, in your case), then the fault for that mistake lies entirely with them.

[SCalScoreKeeper]

Our job behind the table is to provide information.It's up to the officials on the floor to determine proper enforcement.I may ask something to get the conversation going like-Hey guys isn't that a technical for changing the roster after 10 minutes? But from then on I zip it and let the professionals do what they're trained to do.

[jTheUmp]

This is why I always ask the coaches to double-check the book as part of my pregame meeting (and why my pregame meeting ends before the 10-minute mark).

A couple of things you need to try to figure out:
1) was the correct information supplied to the table prior to the 10-minute mark? If so, it's a bookkeeping mistake, which doesn't warrant or require a T.
2) Did the 'indicated starter' become injured/incapacitated/sick during warm-ups? If so, they can be replaced as a starter without penalty.

"Hey coach, #34 is marked as a starter in the book, but she's not on the floor... she's sick, right?" "Huh?" "Just say 'yes', coach (*wink*)" "Oh... yeah, she's sick, but she'll be better in a minute" "Ok."

[bbodb1]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

This is why I always ask the coaches to double-check the book as part of my pregame meeting (and why my pregame meeting ends before the 10-minute mark).

A couple of things you need to try to figure out:
1) was the correct information supplied to the table prior to the 10-minute mark? If so, it's a bookkeeping mistake, which doesn't warrant or require a T.
2) Did the 'indicated starter' become injured/incapacitated/sick during warm-ups? If so, they can be replaced as a starter without penalty.

"Hey coach, #34 is marked as a starter in the book, but she's not on the floor... she's sick, right?" "Huh?" "Just say 'yes', coach (*wink*)" "Oh... yeah, she's sick, but she'll be better in a minute" "Ok."

In the situation from last night, there was no pregame conference...
Also, and I hate when coaches do this, a student manager filled out the visitor's roster in the official book.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

...

"Hey coach, #34 is marked as a starter in the book, but she's not on the floor... she's sick, right?" "Huh?" "Just say 'yes', coach (*wink*)" "Oh... yeah, she's sick, but she'll be better in a minute" "Ok."

Even if the coach made a mistake, he has the opportunity to put the correct starter in the game without penalty.

Basically, the penalty for incorrect starters will only occur if the coach is notified of the incorrect starter prior to tip-off and decides to accept the penalty instead of putting the correct starter on the court.

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

"Hey coach, #34 is marked as a starter in the book, but she's not on the floor... she's sick, right?" "Huh?" "Just say 'yes', coach (*wink*)" "Oh... yeah, she's sick, but she'll be better in a minute" "Ok."

Why would you MSU when there is a casebook play squarely on point and the coach can simply put the proper starter in?

And I'm not sure why asking a coach to lie would be a good way to start out the game.

Very bad advice IMO.