Back court violation?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by frezer11

Are you referring to the one referenced in this thread, the inbounds that is glanced by A then recovered by A in their own backcourt or a different one that I'm oblivious to ?

A1 has ball in FC. Throws pass towards A2, but it's tipped by B1 into the air. A2 runs into the BC and catches it.

A had TC in the FC.
B was the last to touch the ball before it went to the BC.
A was the first to touch the ball after it went to the BC.

There's an interp that states this is a violation, but the ramifications of the ruling and reasoning don't make sense given the applicable rules.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by Adam

A1 has ball in FC. Throws pass towards A2, but it's tipped by B1 into the air. A2 runs into the BC and catches it.

A had TC in the FC.
B was the last to touch the ball before it went to the BC.
A was the first to touch the ball after it went to the BC.

There's an interp that states this is a violation, but the ramifications of the ruling and reasoning don't make sense given the applicable rules.

Thanks. Yeah it really doesn't, especially now that they added the tipped ball signal to the chart last year or whenever that was.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by frezer11

Thanks. Yeah it really doesn't, especially now that they added the tipped ball signal to the chart last year or whenever that was.

The signal makes no difference with the rule, but I agree that it would be an even harder call to sell after making that signal.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by Adam

A1 has ball in FC. Throws pass towards A2, but it's tipped by B1 into the air. A2 runs into the BC and catches it.

A had TC in the FC.
B was the last to touch the ball before it went to the BC.
A was the first to touch the ball after it went to the BC.

There's an interp that states this is a violation, but the ramifications of the ruling and reasoning don't make sense given the applicable rules.

Been thinking about this for the last half hour (my classes have gotten a thorough education today...) Is this situation saying that the ball is tipped, and before it hits the ground it is caught by A2 who is in the backcourt? I still disagree, but that does change the scenario I had envisioned in my head.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by frezer11

Been thinking about this for the last half hour (my classes have gotten a thorough education today...) Is this situation saying that the ball is tipped, and before it hits the ground it is caught by A2 who is in the backcourt? I still disagree, but that does change the scenario I had envisioned in my head.

Yes, that's the scenario. The ruling, in order to make sense, would mean that when A2 catches the ball in the BC, he is simultaneously completing two separate acts (first to touch and last to touch) that must come, respectively, before and after a third separate act (ball going into the BC).

Ramifications:
A1 dribbling in the BC, near the FC being guarded by B1 who is standing in the FC. (TC is now established).
B1 swipes at and tips the ball into the air. (FC status is now established)
A2 catches the ball.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Rich1

A1 dribbling in the BC, near the FC being guarded by B1 who is standing in the FC. (TC is now established).
B1 swipes at and tips the ball into the air. (FC status is now established)
A2 catches the ball while standing in backcourt.

I'll have to dig out my old interps but unless I find something specific I am struggling with this being illigal because Team A was not the last to touch the ball in the front court and when A2 catches the ball he gives it BC status. I see this as no different than if B1 batted a dribbled ball into the back court.

If anyone has already dug up an old interp for this play a reference would be appreciated (and save me some time).

i dont have the play number but what it says is that when the ball is batted by B1 the ball gains FC status as you note. when it is in the air, IT still has frontcourt status. A2 touches a ball that has FC status and he also gives it BC status when he does it. his single touch of the ball is simultaneously the last to touch FC and first to touch BC. that's the play reasoning. bad play...

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by BigCat

A2 touches a ball that has FC status and he also gives it BC status when he does it. his single touch of the ball is simultaneously the last to touch FC and first to touch BC. that's the play reasoning. bad play...

It seems the major factor is when/how the ball is recovered. Catching it before it hits the floor in the BC is a violation but gathering it after it has hit the floor is not. Still seems contradictory to the exceptions but at least there is enough of a distinction there to ease my mind.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Rich1

It seems the major factor is when/how the ball is recovered. Catching it before it hits the floor in the BC is a violation but gathering it after it has hit the floor is not. Still seems contradictory to the exceptions but at least there is enough of a distinction there to ease my mind.

the wording of the backcourt rule says player cant be first to touch ball after it been in team control in FC if he or teammate last touched it in front court BEFORE IT WENT TO BC.

the play ruling says the single touch by A2 is simultaneously touching it in FC and BC---or at the same time. simultaneously is not BEFORE. the last player to touch it BEFORE it gained BC status was B. my thoughts.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BigCat

the wording of the backcourt rule says player cant be first to touch ball after it been in team control in FC if he or teammate last touched it in front court BEFORE IT WENT TO BC.

the play ruling says the single touch by A2 is simultaneously touching it in FC and BC---or at the same time. simultaneously is not BEFORE. the last player to touch it BEFORE it gained BC status was B. my thoughts.

A LOT of people's thoughts.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Rich1

It seems the major factor is when/how the ball is recovered. Catching it before it hits the floor in the BC is a violation but gathering it after it has hit the floor is not. Still seems contradictory to the exceptions but at least there is enough of a distinction there to ease my mind.

So, let me propose this scenario:

A1 is dribbling in the BC. B1, standing completely in the FC, swipes at the ball knocking it a) into A1's leg, or b) off of A2's (in the BC) leg.

Do you have a violation in either a or b?

If not, do you restart your 10 second count and then begin again?

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by Adam

So, let me propose this scenario:

A1 is dribbling in the BC. B1, standing completely in the FC, swipes at the ball knocking it a) into A1's leg, or b) off of A2's (in the BC) leg.

Do you have a violation in either a or b?

If not, do you restart your 10 second count and then begin again?

I've been pondering this whole discussion and will share more thoughts in another post, but based on these deep ponderings:

No violation in a) since B1 was last to touch. Start a new 10 count as soon as ball obtains BC status.

Violation in b) if Team A is first to touch in BC.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by frezer11

Been thinking about this for the last half hour (my classes have gotten a thorough education today...) Is this situation saying that the ball is tipped, and before it hits the ground it is caught by A2 who is in the backcourt? I still disagree, but that does change the scenario I had envisioned in my head.

Yes.

And, if A2 steps aside (or back) and lets the ball hit the floor in the BC and THEN A2 recovers it, it's legal. (everyone agrees with this part)

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Yes.

And, if A2 steps aside (or back) and lets the ball hit the floor in the BC and THEN A2 recovers it, it's legal. (everyone agrees with this part)

Yup, I'm on board with that. If I'm not mistaken, this was the topic of a thread a month or two ago, with the exception being that the ball was tipped and bouncing toward the BC when recovered by A2 in the BC, but while the ball was between bounces, before it actually touched the BC. Based on this ruling, that would also be a violation.

[bob jenkins]

Your adding a bunch of stuff that doesn't matter (bouncing, between bounces, etc) that doesn't matter.

And, yes, it's been discussed ad nauseum since it came out, and it comes up several times per year.

[deecee]

Safe to say, when you get the backcourt rule and its application, you get officiating and you get varsity games. Until then, call at your own discretion.