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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 14, 2015, 06:23pm
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Back court violation?

A1 has the ball in their front court. B1 knocks the ball loose while A1 is dribbling. In the scramble for the ball A1 touches the ball in A1's front court before regaining possesion of the ball again in the back court. Back court violation? My interpretation of the rule book says yes, a coach with 20 yrs of varsity experience says no.

Last edited by ChrisNE; Wed Jan 14, 2015 at 06:34pm.
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Old Wed Jan 14, 2015, 06:24pm
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Which of those two things do you trust more?
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Old Wed Jan 14, 2015, 06:29pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jTheUmp View Post
Break it down:
a) Does Team A have team control in-bounds? (yes)
b) Does the ball gain frontcourt status when it is being fumbled around? (yes)
c) Was Team A last to touch the ball while it was in the frontcourt (yes, by your description)
d) Was Team A first to touch the ball after it went into the backcourt? (yes)

Since all of those things are true, we have a backcourt violation. If any of those things are not true, you would not have a backcourt violation.
To steal from TheUmp's post in the other backcourt tread, with changes in red to make it relevant to this scenario-
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Old Wed Jan 14, 2015, 06:39pm
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Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
Which of those two things do you trust more?
Depends on the situation! Great coach and friend, just wanted to make sure that beverage of choice wasnt going to leave a bad after taste when I told him to pay up! Sometimes us newbies just question ourselves too much.
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Old Wed Jan 14, 2015, 06:44pm
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Originally Posted by ChrisNE View Post
Depends on the situation! Great coach and friend, just wanted to make sure that beverage of choice wasnt going to leave a bad after taste when I told him to pay up! Sometimes us newbies just question ourselves too much.

All things are relative, but I can tell you this with great conviction. (and the situation here is a good example) It will shock you what coaches, even those with many years of experience, do not know when it comes to the rules.
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Last edited by just another ref; Wed Jan 14, 2015 at 09:10pm.
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Old Wed Jan 14, 2015, 08:18pm
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not to create another BC thread...

On a sideline inbounds play. Team A inbounds above the three point line. pass to a player running from the endline side so he catches it right near midcourt and his momentum carries over to the backcourt.
How do you call these. If A1 fumbles the ball before control but clearly in FC then goes into the backcourt, no violation?
If A1 has one foot in the front, the second one lands in the bc, is this a violation? There is control here on the pass and it is caught in the FC.
I had a play like this when A1 catches in the FC running, one foot in the FC, the second hits the mid-line and the first dribble in BC. It seems like that would be a violation. I know for FC to be established, you need two feet and ball. But does this change if you are inbouding in the FC?

Last edited by mutantducky; Wed Jan 14, 2015 at 08:22pm.
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Old Wed Jan 14, 2015, 08:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
All things are relative, but I can tell you this with great conviction. (and the situation here is a good example) It will shock you what coaches, even those with many years of experience do not know when it comes to the rules.
I witnessed a coach who has been at it for 37 years and also didn't know in a game last year that it's "last to touch, first to touch."

His name is Tom Izzo. Just goes to show ya.

http://ref60.com/ncaa-officials-wired-up/ at the 1:28 mark.

Last edited by crosscountry55; Wed Jan 14, 2015 at 08:48pm. Reason: Added proof.
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Old Wed Jan 14, 2015, 09:11pm
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Originally Posted by mutantducky View Post
I know for FC to be established, you need two feet and ball. But does this change if you are inbouding in the FC?
Not true
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Old Wed Jan 14, 2015, 09:30pm
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Just another is right. Two feet and ball applies to a dribbler. It is a myth that it applies universally.

Player receiving a throw in or pass near the division line with one foot on FC and the other in the air has FC status, for example. If he/she puts that other foot down in BC, that's a violation.
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Old Wed Jan 14, 2015, 09:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mutantducky View Post
not to create another BC thread...

On a sideline inbounds play. Team A inbounds above the three point line. pass to a player running from the endline side so he catches it right near midcourt and his momentum carries over to the backcourt.
How do you call these. If A1 fumbles the ball before control but clearly in FC then goes into the backcourt, no violation?
If A1 has one foot in the front, the second one lands in the bc, is this a violation? There is control here on the pass and it is caught in the FC.
I had a play like this when A1 catches in the FC running, one foot in the FC, the second hits the mid-line and the first dribble in BC. It seems like that would be a violation. I know for FC to be established, you need two feet and ball. But does this change if you are inbouding in the FC?
This is not a violation. On an inbound play, just imagine that there are no lines on the court until both feet are on the floor. And if they fumble it before losing it into the backcourt, there was no front court control for the purposes of a backcourt violation.
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Old Wed Jan 14, 2015, 10:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mutantducky View Post
not to create another BC thread...

On a sideline inbounds play. Team A inbounds above the three point line. pass to a player running from the endline side so he catches it right near midcourt and his momentum carries over to the backcourt.
How do you call these. If A1 fumbles the ball before control but clearly in FC then goes into the backcourt, no violation?
If A1 has one foot in the front, the second one lands in the bc, is this a violation? There is control here on the pass and it is caught in the FC.
I had a play like this when A1 catches in the FC running, one foot in the FC, the second hits the mid-line and the first dribble in BC. It seems like that would be a violation. I know for FC to be established, you need two feet and ball. But does this change if you are inbouding in the FC?
A team must establish team control inbounds before they may commit a BC violation. If A1, standing in the front court, receives a throw-in and fails to gain player control before the ball goes into the backcourt where it is first touched by a Team A player, there is no violation because Team A did not establish team control inbounds.

During a jump ball, throw-in, or while on defense, a player may legally jump from his frontcourt, secure control of the ball with both feet off the floor, and make a normal landing with one or both feet in the backcourt, regardless of whether the first foot to touch the ground is in the frontcourt or backcourt (9-9-3). Essentially, a player subject to 9-9-3 cannot commit a backcourt violation until after they have made a normal landing on the court. Note that this provision only applies during a jump ball or throw-in, meaning that normal BC violation rules apply if the jump ball or throw-in has ended (e.g. jump ball touches a non-jumper, throw-in touches another player inbounds). If a player who is subject to the relaxed 9-9-3 standard lands with both feet in the frontcourt then loses his balance and touches the division line, he has violated.

Your situation where A1 catches the ball in the frontcourt while running, the first foot hits in the frontcourt, the second foot hits on the division line, and the first dribble is in the backcourt does not have a simple answer. In order to determine whether or not this is a backcourt violation, a few questions must be answered. First, did A1 secure control during a throw-in, jump ball, or while on defense? If not, this is a backcourt violation. Second, were both of A1's feet off the ground when he caught the ball? If not, this is a backcourt violation. Third, did A1 make a "normal landing" in your opinion? This is a judgment call, but I would consider running motion to be a "normal landing." If you decide that A1 did not make a "normal landing," this is a backcourt violation. So, for this situation not to be a violation, the following three statements all must be true: A1 secured control of the ball during a throw-in, jump ball, or while on defense; both of A1's feet were off the ground when he caught the ball; A1, in your opinion, made a "normal landing" after catching the ball.
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Old Wed Jan 14, 2015, 10:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes View Post
This is not a violation. On an inbound play, just imagine that there are no lines on the court until both feet are on the floor. And if they fumble it before losing it into the backcourt, there was no front court control for the purposes of a backcourt violation.
Not quite true. It would be more precise to say that the division line is not relevant in making a backcourt violation call following the ball being released on a throw-in (or, perhaps, tapped during a jump ball) until one of the following events occurs: (1) the throw-in (or jump ball) ends because (a) the ball was touched by a player who did not immediately secure control, or (b) the ball was touched by a player who caught the ball who had at least one foot on the ground at the time he caught the ball; (2) a player holding the ball makes a normal landing on the court; (3) the ball becomes dead for any reason.
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Old Wed Jan 14, 2015, 10:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
Which of those two things do you trust more?

You beat me to it. LOL!!

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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 15, 2015, 01:45am
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On the fumble- I got that. No control so the fumble one isn't a violation.

But let's start with this. A throw-in above the three point line sideline. A1 runs from say below the free throw line and catches the inbounds pass near the division line. A1 catches the ball clearly in the FC. Are you saying that if the "normal landing/or momentum causes A1 to go into the backcourt this is not a violation?


crosscountry55- So if catch in the Fc with control and foot comes into the bc, then that is a violation. If both feet in the FC and then dribble in the BC then that is a violation? Say feet stay in the FC but ball doesn't. If the ball is dribbled on the division line but feet in the FC, that is not a violation?

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Old Thu Jan 15, 2015, 07:16am
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A ten-second count continues when the defense deflects or bats the ball in the backcourt. When a dribbler is advancing the ball into the frontcourt, the ball maintains backcourt status until both feet and the ball touch entirely in the frontcourt.

During a throwin, even under a team’s own basket, if the throwin is deflected, tipped, or batted by an offensive player in the frontcourt to an offensive player in the backcourt; or after a missed field goal attempt, or a missed foul shot attempt, if the ball is deflected, tipped, or batted by an offensive player in the frontcourt to an offensive player in the backcourt; these are not a backcourt violations.

During a throwin, or jump ball, any player; or a defensive player, in making a steal; may legally jump from his or her frontcourt, secure control of the ball with both feet off the floor, and return to the floor with one or both feet in the backcourt. The player may make a normal landing and it makes no difference whether the first foot down is in the frontcourt or the backcourt. These three situations are not backcourt violations.
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