Back court violation?

[ChrisNE]

A1 has the ball in their front court. B1 knocks the ball loose while A1 is dribbling. In the scramble for the ball A1 touches the ball in A1's front court before regaining possesion of the ball again in the back court. Back court violation? My interpretation of the rule book says yes, a coach with 20 yrs of varsity experience says no.

[just another ref]

Which of those two things do you trust more?

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

Break it down:
a) Does Team A have team control in-bounds? (yes)
b) Does the ball gain frontcourt status when it is being fumbled around? (yes)
c) Was Team A last to touch the ball while it was in the frontcourt (yes, by your description)
d) Was Team A first to touch the ball after it went into the backcourt? (yes)

Since all of those things are true, we have a backcourt violation. If any of those things are not true, you would not have a backcourt violation.

To steal from TheUmp's post in the other backcourt tread, with changes in red to make it relevant to this scenario-

[ChrisNE]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Which of those two things do you trust more?

Depends on the situation! Great coach and friend, just wanted to make sure that beverage of choice wasnt going to leave a bad after taste when I told him to pay up! Sometimes us newbies just question ourselves too much.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by ChrisNE

Depends on the situation! Great coach and friend, just wanted to make sure that beverage of choice wasnt going to leave a bad after taste when I told him to pay up! Sometimes us newbies just question ourselves too much.

All things are relative, but I can tell you this with great conviction. (and the situation here is a good example) It will shock you what coaches, even those with many years of experience, do not know when it comes to the rules.

[mutantducky]

not to create another BC thread...

On a sideline inbounds play. Team A inbounds above the three point line. pass to a player running from the endline side so he catches it right near midcourt and his momentum carries over to the backcourt.
How do you call these. If A1 fumbles the ball before control but clearly in FC then goes into the backcourt, no violation?
If A1 has one foot in the front, the second one lands in the bc, is this a violation? There is control here on the pass and it is caught in the FC.
I had a play like this when A1 catches in the FC running, one foot in the FC, the second hits the mid-line and the first dribble in BC. It seems like that would be a violation. I know for FC to be established, you need two feet and ball. But does this change if you are inbouding in the FC?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

I know for FC to be established, you need two feet and ball. But does this change if you are inbouding in the FC?

Not true

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

not to create another BC thread...

On a sideline inbounds play. Team A inbounds above the three point line. pass to a player running from the endline side so he catches it right near midcourt and his momentum carries over to the backcourt.
How do you call these. If A1 fumbles the ball before control but clearly in FC then goes into the backcourt, no violation?
If A1 has one foot in the front, the second one lands in the bc, is this a violation? There is control here on the pass and it is caught in the FC.
I had a play like this when A1 catches in the FC running, one foot in the FC, the second hits the mid-line and the first dribble in BC. It seems like that would be a violation. I know for FC to be established, you need two feet and ball. But does this change if you are inbouding in the FC?

This is not a violation. On an inbound play, just imagine that there are no lines on the court until both feet are on the floor. And if they fumble it before losing it into the backcourt, there was no front court control for the purposes of a backcourt violation.

[La Rikardo]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

not to create another BC thread...

On a sideline inbounds play. Team A inbounds above the three point line. pass to a player running from the endline side so he catches it right near midcourt and his momentum carries over to the backcourt.
How do you call these. If A1 fumbles the ball before control but clearly in FC then goes into the backcourt, no violation?
If A1 has one foot in the front, the second one lands in the bc, is this a violation? There is control here on the pass and it is caught in the FC.
I had a play like this when A1 catches in the FC running, one foot in the FC, the second hits the mid-line and the first dribble in BC. It seems like that would be a violation. I know for FC to be established, you need two feet and ball. But does this change if you are inbouding in the FC?

A team must establish team control inbounds before they may commit a BC violation. If A1, standing in the front court, receives a throw-in and fails to gain player control before the ball goes into the backcourt where it is first touched by a Team A player, there is no violation because Team A did not establish team control inbounds.

During a jump ball, throw-in, or while on defense, a player may legally jump from his frontcourt, secure control of the ball with both feet off the floor, and make a normal landing with one or both feet in the backcourt, regardless of whether the first foot to touch the ground is in the frontcourt or backcourt (9-9-3). Essentially, a player subject to 9-9-3 cannot commit a backcourt violation until after they have made a normal landing on the court. Note that this provision only applies during a jump ball or throw-in, meaning that normal BC violation rules apply if the jump ball or throw-in has ended (e.g. jump ball touches a non-jumper, throw-in touches another player inbounds). If a player who is subject to the relaxed 9-9-3 standard lands with both feet in the frontcourt then loses his balance and touches the division line, he has violated.

Your situation where A1 catches the ball in the frontcourt while running, the first foot hits in the frontcourt, the second foot hits on the division line, and the first dribble is in the backcourt does not have a simple answer. In order to determine whether or not this is a backcourt violation, a few questions must be answered. First, did A1 secure control during a throw-in, jump ball, or while on defense? If not, this is a backcourt violation. Second, were both of A1's feet off the ground when he caught the ball? If not, this is a backcourt violation. Third, did A1 make a "normal landing" in your opinion? This is a judgment call, but I would consider running motion to be a "normal landing." If you decide that A1 did not make a "normal landing," this is a backcourt violation. So, for this situation not to be a violation, the following three statements all must be true: A1 secured control of the ball during a throw-in, jump ball, or while on defense; both of A1's feet were off the ground when he caught the ball; A1, in your opinion, made a "normal landing" after catching the ball.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by just another ref

All things are relative, but I can tell you this with great conviction. (and the situation here is a good example) It will shock you what coaches, even those with many years of experience do not know when it comes to the rules.

I witnessed a coach who has been at it for 37 years and also didn't know in a game last year that it's "last to touch, first to touch."

His name is Tom Izzo. Just goes to show ya.

http://ref60.com/ncaa-officials-wired-up/ at the 1:28 mark.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Which of those two things do you trust more?

You beat me to it. LOL!!

MTD, Sr.

[mutantducky]

On the fumble- I got that. No control so the fumble one isn't a violation.

But let's start with this. A throw-in above the three point line sideline. A1 runs from say below the free throw line and catches the inbounds pass near the division line. A1 catches the ball clearly in the FC. Are you saying that if the "normal landing/or momentum causes A1 to go into the backcourt this is not a violation?


crosscountry55- So if catch in the Fc with control and foot comes into the bc, then that is a violation. If both feet in the FC and then dribble in the BC then that is a violation? Say feet stay in the FC but ball doesn't. If the ball is dribbled on the division line but feet in the FC, that is not a violation?

I need zzzz's. no mas. Get away Sugar Ray!

[BillyMac]

A ten-second count continues when the defense deflects or bats the ball in the backcourt. When a dribbler is advancing the ball into the frontcourt, the ball maintains backcourt status until both feet and the ball touch entirely in the frontcourt.

During a throwin, even under a team’s own basket, if the throwin is deflected, tipped, or batted by an offensive player in the frontcourt to an offensive player in the backcourt; or after a missed field goal attempt, or a missed foul shot attempt, if the ball is deflected, tipped, or batted by an offensive player in the frontcourt to an offensive player in the backcourt; these are not a backcourt violations.

During a throwin, or jump ball, any player; or a defensive player, in making a steal; may legally jump from his or her frontcourt, secure control of the ball with both feet off the floor, and return to the floor with one or both feet in the backcourt. The player may make a normal landing and it makes no difference whether the first foot down is in the frontcourt or the backcourt. These three situations are not backcourt violations.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

On the fumble- I got that. No control so the fumble one isn't a violation.

But let's start with this. A throw-in above the three point line sideline. A1 runs from say below the free throw line and catches the inbounds pass near the division line. A1 catches the ball clearly in the FC. Are you saying that if the "normal landing/or momentum causes A1 to go into the backcourt this is not a violation?


crosscountry55- So if catch in the Fc with control and foot comes into the bc, then that is a violation. If both feet in the FC and then dribble in the BC then that is a violation? Say feet stay in the FC but ball doesn't. If the ball is dribbled on the division line but feet in the FC, that is not a violation?

I need zzzz's. no mas. Get away Sugar Ray!

1) If the player catches the ball in the air, he's allowed to land in the BC. If he catches the ball on the hround (even with one foot), he cannot step into the BC.

2) Once the ball is in the FC, it's a violation to dribble the ball in the BC (including on the division line). The three-points rule applies only while dribbling from BC to FC.

[deecee]

Why is FC/BC so tough to grasp?

On a thrown in there is an exception that allows a player jumping from the FC to BC be the first to touch the ball by catching it and landing the BC with no violation. This exception does not exist during an interrupted dribble or instances where a team with TC and PC in the frontcourt get the ball batted away by the defense and the ball last touches the offensive player in the FC.

A player's position on the court is determined by where they are or where they feet/foot last touched.