Crash…no whistle

[Chris Whitten]

I need some help. Had this happen a couple of weeks ago and again tonight: I am at T in a 3 whistle game when the dribbler goes right down the middle of the lane and crashes into the defender about 6-8 ft from the goal. Due to player traffic I can't see if the defender has established LGP. A call from me would be nearly a guess. No whistle from C or L, either of which should have had a better view of defender position than I had. Of course, coaches hit the roof. I don't blame them. There was enough contact to have had a block or a charge.

I think we would all prefer for C or L to make this call. However, do you as T come with a delayed whistle because "someone needs to have a whistle on a crash in the paint?" Is there any way I can sharpen up to this play to help my partners who may "freeze" and make no call?

[just another ref]

If you have an unrestricted view of the play and there is reason to believe that your partners don't, you might make this call. But based on your own words here (can't see, nearly a guess) sounds like you needed to leave it alone.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Chris Whitten

I need some help. Had this happen a couple of weeks ago and again tonight: I am at T in a 3 whistle game when the dribbler goes right down the middle of the lane and crashes into the defender about 6-8 ft from the goal. Due to player traffic I can't see if the defender has established LGP. A call from me would be nearly a guess. No whistle from C or L, either of which should have had a better view of defender position than I had. Of course, coaches hit the roof. I don't blame them. There was enough contact to have had a block or a charge.

I think we would all prefer for C or L to make this call. However, do you as T come with a delayed whistle because "someone needs to have a whistle on a crash in the paint?" Is there any way I can sharpen up to this play to help my partners who may "freeze" and make no call?

I had a carbon copy of that play last year. C & L have nothing. I'm not sure, but in my head I'm thinking, "this is one of those 'elephants' that needs a whistle to save the crew." The cue to my decision was the relative movement of the defender. He was in the center of a 3-2 zone and had been in the paint the whole time, and the drive was quick enough where the defense hadn't reacted much yet. So my educated guess was charge. I went with it. And oh golly gee did I sell it, even though it was noticeably late. No argument from either coach.

If it hadn't been such an elephant, I've got nothing.

C thanked me at halftime. Said he had a great look for a secondary whistle, but got surprised and froze. Happens to all of us.

Depends on how much you saw and how bad you think it was. If the offensive players ends up on top of the defender on the floor then you probably need a whistle, right or wrong. If you think the L or C could be no-calling a defender leaving early or something like that leave it alone. But if you have two players on the floor then you probably have something. In certain situations I think a total guess is better than nothing at all. It's all a feel for the situation and the temperature of the game.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Depends on how much you saw and how bad you think it was. If the offensive players ends up on top of the defender on the floor then you probably need a whistle, right or wrong. If you think the L or C could be no-calling a defender leaving early or something like that leave it alone. But if you have two players on the floor then you probably have something. In certain situations I think a total guess is better than nothing at all. It's all a feel for the situation and the temperature of the game.

I am uncomfortable with the replies given.
The three-person system is designed so that, when all partners are working the system, speculations and guesses as suggested -- even prescribed -- in previous posts are not necessary.
If one partner or the other, for whatever reason, doesn't get a look that the system sets him/her up for, or doesn't make the call that's required from him/her, the solution isn't for someone else to guess or speculate to pick up the slack. That's something totally different than a "crew saver," which sounds like the aim of the responses thus far.
I just don't get any sort of warm-and-fuzzies about this. Do you?
Or am I misunderstanding the responses so far?

Originally Posted by Freddy

I am uncomfortable with the replies given.
The three-person system is designed so that, when all partners are working the system, speculations and guesses as suggested -- even prescribed -- in previous posts are not necessary.
Now, if one partner or the other, for whatever reason, doesn't get a look that the system sets him/her up for, or doesn't make the call that's required from him/her, the solution isn't for someone else to guess or speculate to pick up the slack. That's something totally different than a "crew saver," which sounds like the aim of the responses thus far.
I just don't get any sort of warm-and-fuzzies about this. Do you?
Or am I misunderstanding the replies so far?

Certainly the three-person system eliminates guessing but we are not talking about a failure of the referees to work the system but rather a human failure of not blowing the whistle on an obvious foul. I don't like the term "crew saver" but I do believe there are certain fouls where you need a call: even from Trail, and even if wrong. Keep in mind we are talking about a very select group of plays that don't happen very often.

[Rich1]

I've passed occassionally on plays where the shooter and defender bang into each other pretty hard but the contact was mutual and there was no advantage/disadvantage. Its about as 50/50 as you can get - the shooter and defender basically jump into each other at exactly the same time. If one of my partners reached out to get this they would be dead wrong either way because there would be no way they knew who fouled who.

If you can't trust your partner (especially in 3-man) then at least let them live or die in their area unless it is so big even Stevie Wonder could see it from the very last row. In 3-man I seldom see calls that big get missed by my partners unless there's been a break down in court cverage somewhere.

And remember, just because one or both coaches reacted doesn't mean anything (since they both wanted the call then maybe it was a good pass after all).

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Depends on how much you saw and how bad you think it was. If the offensive players ends up on top of the defender on the floor then you probably need a whistle, right or wrong. If you think the L or C could be no-calling a defender leaving early or something like that leave it alone. But if you have two players on the floor then you probably have something. In certain situations I think a total guess is better than nothing at all. It's all a feel for the situation and the temperature of the game.

I will not guess in 3-man. One of my partners has to have a clear look and needs to make that call.

In 2-person there are times for an educated guess.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Depends on how much you saw and how bad you think it was. If the offensive players ends up on top of the defender on the floor then you probably need a whistle, right or wrong. If you think the L or C could be no-calling a defender leaving early or something like that leave it alone. But if you have two players on the floor then you probably have something. In certain situations I think a total guess is better than nothing at all. It's all a feel for the situation and the temperature of the game.

A late correct whistle is ALWAYS better than an incorrect no-call....

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Rich

A late correct whistle is ALWAYS better than an incorrect no-call....

And a late INCORRECT whistle is always worse than an incorrect no-call.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

And a late INCORRECT whistle is always worse than an incorrect no-call.

I'd argue against that. I'd rather see someone make an incorrect call on a block/charge where both players go to the floor and a whistle is obviously needed.

We can work on fixing the incorrect call...failure to put a whistle on a play that needs it is usually a bigger problem in my experience.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Chris Whitten

I need some help. Had this happen a couple of weeks ago and again tonight: I am at T in a 3 whistle game when the dribbler goes right down the middle of the lane and crashes into the defender about 6-8 ft from the goal. Due to player traffic I can't see if the defender has established LGP. A call from me would be nearly a guess. No whistle from C or L, either of which should have had a better view of defender position than I had. Of course, coaches hit the roof. I don't blame them. There was enough contact to have had a block or a charge.

I think we would all prefer for C or L to make this call. However, do you as T come with a delayed whistle because "someone needs to have a whistle on a crash in the paint?" Is there any way I can sharpen up to this play to help my partners who may "freeze" and make no call?

Did you talk to your partners later to ask what they saw?

[Raymond]

If you have an open look, come with a late whistle. But if you can't see it, then you need to leave it alone and have a discussion with your partners at halftime or after the game.