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-   -   Crash…no whistle (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/99013-crash-no-whistle.html)

Chris Whitten Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:43pm
Crash…no whistle
 
I need some help. Had this happen a couple of weeks ago and again tonight: I am at T in a 3 whistle game when the dribbler goes right down the middle of the lane and crashes into the defender about 6-8 ft from the goal. Due to player traffic I can't see if the defender has established LGP. A call from me would be nearly a guess. No whistle from C or L, either of which should have had a better view of defender position than I had. Of course, coaches hit the roof. I don't blame them. There was enough contact to have had a block or a charge.

I think we would all prefer for C or L to make this call. However, do you as T come with a delayed whistle because "someone needs to have a whistle on a crash in the paint?" Is there any way I can sharpen up to this play to help my partners who may "freeze" and make no call?

just another ref Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:52pm
If you have an unrestricted view of the play and there is reason to believe that your partners don't, you might make this call. But based on your own words here (can't see, nearly a guess) sounds like you needed to leave it alone.

crosscountry55 Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Whitten (Post 949465)
I need some help. Had this happen a couple of weeks ago and again tonight: I am at T in a 3 whistle game when the dribbler goes right down the middle of the lane and crashes into the defender about 6-8 ft from the goal. Due to player traffic I can't see if the defender has established LGP. A call from me would be nearly a guess. No whistle from C or L, either of which should have had a better view of defender position than I had. Of course, coaches hit the roof. I don't blame them. There was enough contact to have had a block or a charge.

I think we would all prefer for C or L to make this call. However, do you as T come with a delayed whistle because "someone needs to have a whistle on a crash in the paint?" Is there any way I can sharpen up to this play to help my partners who may "freeze" and make no call?
I had a carbon copy of that play last year. C & L have nothing. I'm not sure, but in my head I'm thinking, "this is one of those 'elephants' that needs a whistle to save the crew." The cue to my decision was the relative movement of the defender. He was in the center of a 3-2 zone and had been in the paint the whole time, and the drive was quick enough where the defense hadn't reacted much yet. So my educated guess was charge. I went with it. And oh golly gee did I sell it, even though it was noticeably late. No argument from either coach.

If it hadn't been such an elephant, I've got nothing.

C thanked me at halftime. Said he had a great look for a secondary whistle, but got surprised and froze. Happens to all of us.

AremRed Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:54pm
Depends on how much you saw and how bad you think it was. If the offensive players ends up on top of the defender on the floor then you probably need a whistle, right or wrong. If you think the L or C could be no-calling a defender leaving early or something like that leave it alone. But if you have two players on the floor then you probably have something. In certain situations I think a total guess is better than nothing at all. It's all a feel for the situation and the temperature of the game.

Freddy Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:19am
Hmmmmmmmmm
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 949470)
Depends on how much you saw and how bad you think it was. If the offensive players ends up on top of the defender on the floor then you probably need a whistle, right or wrong. If you think the L or C could be no-calling a defender leaving early or something like that leave it alone. But if you have two players on the floor then you probably have something. In certain situations I think a total guess is better than nothing at all. It's all a feel for the situation and the temperature of the game.
I am uncomfortable with the replies given.
The three-person system is designed so that, when all partners are working the system, speculations and guesses as suggested -- even prescribed -- in previous posts are not necessary.
If one partner or the other, for whatever reason, doesn't get a look that the system sets him/her up for, or doesn't make the call that's required from him/her, the solution isn't for someone else to guess or speculate to pick up the slack. That's something totally different than a "crew saver," which sounds like the aim of the responses thus far.
I just don't get any sort of warm-and-fuzzies about this. Do you?
Or am I misunderstanding the responses so far?

AremRed Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 949472)
I am uncomfortable with the replies given.
The three-person system is designed so that, when all partners are working the system, speculations and guesses as suggested -- even prescribed -- in previous posts are not necessary.
Now, if one partner or the other, for whatever reason, doesn't get a look that the system sets him/her up for, or doesn't make the call that's required from him/her, the solution isn't for someone else to guess or speculate to pick up the slack. That's something totally different than a "crew saver," which sounds like the aim of the responses thus far.
I just don't get any sort of warm-and-fuzzies about this. Do you?
Or am I misunderstanding the replies so far?
Certainly the three-person system eliminates guessing but we are not talking about a failure of the referees to work the system but rather a human failure of not blowing the whistle on an obvious foul. I don't like the term "crew saver" but I do believe there are certain fouls where you need a call: even from Trail, and even if wrong. Keep in mind we are talking about a very select group of plays that don't happen very often.

Rich1 Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:59am
Trust your partners
 
I've passed occassionally on plays where the shooter and defender bang into each other pretty hard but the contact was mutual and there was no advantage/disadvantage. Its about as 50/50 as you can get - the shooter and defender basically jump into each other at exactly the same time. If one of my partners reached out to get this they would be dead wrong either way because there would be no way they knew who fouled who.

If you can't trust your partner (especially in 3-man) then at least let them live or die in their area unless it is so big even Stevie Wonder could see it from the very last row. In 3-man I seldom see calls that big get missed by my partners unless there's been a break down in court cverage somewhere.

And remember, just because one or both coaches reacted doesn't mean anything (since they both wanted the call then maybe it was a good pass after all).

Rich1 Sat Jan 10, 2015 01:08am
Guess???
 
I'm not a fan of guessing. If you didn't see it you shouldn't call it. In many cases I think there was a travel or a double dribble or the like but if I don't see it happen I can't call it. The same apples to these foul situations.

If you have enough information to confidently lean one way or the other (like the example by crosscountry) then blowing the whistle and flipping a coin is not something I could justify. There really is nothing you should do here but put your trust in others.

johnny d Sat Jan 10, 2015 01:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich1 (Post 949474)
I've passed occassionally on plays where the shooter and defender bang into each other pretty hard but the contact was mutual and there was no advantage/disadvantage. Its about as 50/50 as you can get - the shooter and defender basically jump into each other at exactly the same time. If one of my partners reached out to get this they would be dead wrong either way because there would be no way they knew who fouled who.



If you can't trust your partner (especially in 3-man) then at least let them live or die in their area unless it is so big even Stevie Wonder could see it from the very last row. In 3-man I seldom see calls that big get missed by my partners unless there's been a break down in court cverage somewhere.

And remember, just because one or both coaches reacted doesn't mean anything (since they both wanted the call then maybe it was a good pass after all).
It is not possible for the defender and a shooter to jump into each other at exactly the same time and for it to be a 50/50 play. Either the defender established legal guarding position and jumped within his vertical plane making the shooter responsible for the contact, or the defender has not established LGP or has jumped outside of his vertical plane, thus making him responsible for the contact. Now, if you are referring to a play where two players without the ball are jumping for the ball from equally advantageous positions, I would agree there are times where there is no advantage/disadvantage, even though there could be severe contact.

Rich1 Sat Jan 10, 2015 01:50am
Yes, but...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny d (Post 949477)
It is not possible for the defender and a shooter to jump into each other at exactly the same time and for it to be a 50/50 play. Either the defender established legal guarding position and jumped within his vertical plane making the shooter responsible for the contact, or the defender has not established LGP or has jumped outside of his vertical plane, thus making him responsible for the contact. Now, if you are referring to a play where two players without the ball are jumping for the ball from equally advantageous positions, I would agree there are times where there is no advantage/disadvantage, even though there could be severe contact.
Yes, one player surely initiated contact before the other and 94.673% of the time its clear who it was and the advantage/disadvantage gained. But there are those times when the contact is marginal, has no real affect on the play (even if one player technically initiated the contact), or its difficult to tell who got their first so its ok to pass on it.

As I stated earlier in relation to the OP, unless you KNOW your partner blew it big, its best to leave it alone.

biggravy Sat Jan 10, 2015 02:25am
OP says dribbler went right down the middle? Who's primary did he start from. In my corner of Rome, C or T stays with the drive that starts in their primary. Even if it didn't start in my primary I'm closing down on that anticipating a quick pass or rebounding action and making sure I have a good look. "Down the middle" again, driver splitting two primaries I'm making sure I'm closing down and getting an angle.

crosscountry55 Sat Jan 10, 2015 08:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by biggravy (Post 949481)
OP says dribbler went right down the middle? Who's primary did he start from. In my corner of Rome, C or T stays with the drive that starts in their primary. Even if it didn't start in my primary I'm closing down on that anticipating a quick pass or rebounding action and making sure I have a good look. "Down the middle" again, driver splitting two primaries I'm making sure I'm closing down and getting an angle.
In my case I did, and got stacked anyway by a passing teammate of the dribbler who was probably setting up for a kickback pass. Meanwhile C has a last second but open look at the defender in the middle and froze.

WRT Rich1, I hear ya and almost agree. But this was not 50/50. I'd say my educated guess was about 70/30. And the defender got laid out on the floor while the dribbler stumbled and lost his balance. I had to have a whistle.

Chris Whitten Sat Jan 10, 2015 08:54am
Biggravy, your point is excellent. On a drive from one of the wings C or T can stay with it and likely get a decent look. My issue is the defender is a secondary one and must have come up from one of the blocks to challenge the drive. I was blocked from seeing whether he had LGP.

Nevadaref Sat Jan 10, 2015 09:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 949470)
Depends on how much you saw and how bad you think it was. If the offensive players ends up on top of the defender on the floor then you probably need a whistle, right or wrong. If you think the L or C could be no-calling a defender leaving early or something like that leave it alone. But if you have two players on the floor then you probably have something. In certain situations I think a total guess is better than nothing at all. It's all a feel for the situation and the temperature of the game.
I will not guess in 3-man. One of my partners has to have a clear look and needs to make that call.

In 2-person there are times for an educated guess.

Nevadaref Sat Jan 10, 2015 09:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Whitten (Post 949487)
Biggravy, your point is excellent. On a drive from one of the wings C or T can stay with it and likely get a decent look. My issue is the defender is a secondary one and must have come up from one of the blocks to challenge the drive. I was blocked from seeing whether he had LGP.
A secondary defender is likely going to require a call from an official other than the one following the drive to the basket.
So if the drive comes from T, the secondary defender could could from the PCA of either the L or C and that official should make the call. If the drive is from the C's side, most likely the secondary defender will come from the Lead's PCA, but he could come from the C's side outside the lane and that is when the L or even T may have to come help. This is the tough sitch in which the drive happens quickly after a skip pass and the crew doesn't have time to rotate.


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