Crash…no whistle

Depends on how much you saw and how bad you think it was. If the offensive players ends up on top of the defender on the floor then you probably need a whistle, right or wrong. If you think the L or C could be no-calling a defender leaving early or something like that leave it alone. But if you have two players on the floor then you probably have something. In certain situations I think a total guess is better than nothing at all. It's all a feel for the situation and the temperature of the game.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Depends on how much you saw and how bad you think it was. If the offensive players ends up on top of the defender on the floor then you probably need a whistle, right or wrong. If you think the L or C could be no-calling a defender leaving early or something like that leave it alone. But if you have two players on the floor then you probably have something. In certain situations I think a total guess is better than nothing at all. It's all a feel for the situation and the temperature of the game.

I am uncomfortable with the replies given.
The three-person system is designed so that, when all partners are working the system, speculations and guesses as suggested -- even prescribed -- in previous posts are not necessary.
If one partner or the other, for whatever reason, doesn't get a look that the system sets him/her up for, or doesn't make the call that's required from him/her, the solution isn't for someone else to guess or speculate to pick up the slack. That's something totally different than a "crew saver," which sounds like the aim of the responses thus far.
I just don't get any sort of warm-and-fuzzies about this. Do you?
Or am I misunderstanding the responses so far?

Originally Posted by Freddy

I am uncomfortable with the replies given.
The three-person system is designed so that, when all partners are working the system, speculations and guesses as suggested -- even prescribed -- in previous posts are not necessary.
Now, if one partner or the other, for whatever reason, doesn't get a look that the system sets him/her up for, or doesn't make the call that's required from him/her, the solution isn't for someone else to guess or speculate to pick up the slack. That's something totally different than a "crew saver," which sounds like the aim of the responses thus far.
I just don't get any sort of warm-and-fuzzies about this. Do you?
Or am I misunderstanding the replies so far?

Certainly the three-person system eliminates guessing but we are not talking about a failure of the referees to work the system but rather a human failure of not blowing the whistle on an obvious foul. I don't like the term "crew saver" but I do believe there are certain fouls where you need a call: even from Trail, and even if wrong. Keep in mind we are talking about a very select group of plays that don't happen very often.

[Rich1]

I've passed occassionally on plays where the shooter and defender bang into each other pretty hard but the contact was mutual and there was no advantage/disadvantage. Its about as 50/50 as you can get - the shooter and defender basically jump into each other at exactly the same time. If one of my partners reached out to get this they would be dead wrong either way because there would be no way they knew who fouled who.

If you can't trust your partner (especially in 3-man) then at least let them live or die in their area unless it is so big even Stevie Wonder could see it from the very last row. In 3-man I seldom see calls that big get missed by my partners unless there's been a break down in court cverage somewhere.

And remember, just because one or both coaches reacted doesn't mean anything (since they both wanted the call then maybe it was a good pass after all).

[Rich1]

I'm not a fan of guessing. If you didn't see it you shouldn't call it. In many cases I think there was a travel or a double dribble or the like but if I don't see it happen I can't call it. The same apples to these foul situations.

If you have enough information to confidently lean one way or the other (like the example by crosscountry) then blowing the whistle and flipping a coin is not something I could justify. There really is nothing you should do here but put your trust in others.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Rich1

I've passed occassionally on plays where the shooter and defender bang into each other pretty hard but the contact was mutual and there was no advantage/disadvantage. Its about as 50/50 as you can get - the shooter and defender basically jump into each other at exactly the same time. If one of my partners reached out to get this they would be dead wrong either way because there would be no way they knew who fouled who.



If you can't trust your partner (especially in 3-man) then at least let them live or die in their area unless it is so big even Stevie Wonder could see it from the very last row. In 3-man I seldom see calls that big get missed by my partners unless there's been a break down in court cverage somewhere.

And remember, just because one or both coaches reacted doesn't mean anything (since they both wanted the call then maybe it was a good pass after all).

It is not possible for the defender and a shooter to jump into each other at exactly the same time and for it to be a 50/50 play. Either the defender established legal guarding position and jumped within his vertical plane making the shooter responsible for the contact, or the defender has not established LGP or has jumped outside of his vertical plane, thus making him responsible for the contact. Now, if you are referring to a play where two players without the ball are jumping for the ball from equally advantageous positions, I would agree there are times where there is no advantage/disadvantage, even though there could be severe contact.

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by johnny d

It is not possible for the defender and a shooter to jump into each other at exactly the same time and for it to be a 50/50 play. Either the defender established legal guarding position and jumped within his vertical plane making the shooter responsible for the contact, or the defender has not established LGP or has jumped outside of his vertical plane, thus making him responsible for the contact. Now, if you are referring to a play where two players without the ball are jumping for the ball from equally advantageous positions, I would agree there are times where there is no advantage/disadvantage, even though there could be severe contact.

Yes, one player surely initiated contact before the other and 94.673% of the time its clear who it was and the advantage/disadvantage gained. But there are those times when the contact is marginal, has no real affect on the play (even if one player technically initiated the contact), or its difficult to tell who got their first so its ok to pass on it.

As I stated earlier in relation to the OP, unless you KNOW your partner blew it big, its best to leave it alone.

[biggravy]

OP says dribbler went right down the middle? Who's primary did he start from. In my corner of Rome, C or T stays with the drive that starts in their primary. Even if it didn't start in my primary I'm closing down on that anticipating a quick pass or rebounding action and making sure I have a good look. "Down the middle" again, driver splitting two primaries I'm making sure I'm closing down and getting an angle.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Rich1

Yes, one player surely initiated contact before the other and 94.673% of the time its clear who it was and the advantage/disadvantage gained. But there are those times when the contact is marginal, has no real affect on the play (even if one player technically initiated the contact), or its difficult to tell who got their first so its ok to pass on it.

As I stated earlier in relation to the OP, unless you KNOW your partner blew it big, its best to leave it alone.

My post was not intended to address advantage gained, nor did it necessarily have anything to do with the severity of the contact. I was disputing your statement that there are instances where there are 50/50 plays between a player with the ball (a shooter specifically) and a defender getting to a particular spot. By rule, this is simply not true. That does not mean there has to be a call every time there is contact. Sometimes there is incidental contact that can be ignored. Rarely if ever, can incidental contact result in two players on the ground.

Finally, to address a statement you make in this post, you should stop judging the legality of contact by its severity. There are times when marginal contact is and should be a foul. There are times severe contact is and should not be a foul. The question is not whether the contact is marginal or severe, it is whether or not it is incidental.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Rich1

Yes, one player surely initiated contact before the other and 94.673% of the time its clear who it was and the advantage/disadvantage gained. But there are those times when the contact is marginal, has no real affect on the play (even if one player technically initiated the contact), or its difficult to tell who got their first so its ok to pass on it.

The rules don't base the fouls on who initiates contact, regardless of how many officials use that term. In fact, the foul is often on the player who didn't initiate contact simply because they were not in a legal position. Basing fouls in who initiated the contact will often lead to the wrong foul call.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Depends on how much you saw and how bad you think it was. If the offensive players ends up on top of the defender on the floor then you probably need a whistle, right or wrong. If you think the L or C could be no-calling a defender leaving early or something like that leave it alone. But if you have two players on the floor then you probably have something. In certain situations I think a total guess is better than nothing at all. It's all a feel for the situation and the temperature of the game.

I will not guess in 3-man. One of my partners has to have a clear look and needs to make that call.

In 2-person there are times for an educated guess.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Depends on how much you saw and how bad you think it was. If the offensive players ends up on top of the defender on the floor then you probably need a whistle, right or wrong. If you think the L or C could be no-calling a defender leaving early or something like that leave it alone. But if you have two players on the floor then you probably have something. In certain situations I think a total guess is better than nothing at all. It's all a feel for the situation and the temperature of the game.

A late correct whistle is ALWAYS better than an incorrect no-call....

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Rich

A late correct whistle is ALWAYS better than an incorrect no-call....

And a late INCORRECT whistle is always worse than an incorrect no-call.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

And a late INCORRECT whistle is always worse than an incorrect no-call.

I'd argue against that. I'd rather see someone make an incorrect call on a block/charge where both players go to the floor and a whistle is obviously needed.

We can work on fixing the incorrect call...failure to put a whistle on a play that needs it is usually a bigger problem in my experience.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Rich

I'd argue against that. I'd rather see someone make an incorrect call on a block/charge where both players go to the floor and a whistle is obviously needed.

We can work on fixing the incorrect call...failure to put a whistle on a play that needs it is usually a bigger problem in my experience.

I agree with Nevada.

I cringe when I hear people pre-game that if bodies are on the floor we HAVE to have a whistle on the play. Basketball is a contact sport. But we all know that all contact is not illegal. Sometimes there is contact and it looks ugly but its possible nobody did anything illegal. Play on.

I had this play last night. I'm C right in front of Coach A with his team on offense. Dribbler drives into a perfectly legal secondary defender near the top of the key, falls down, ball comes out, primary defender hits the floor too, the ball ends up going the other way with a layup for Team B.

Coach A says another phrase I hate, "that had to be something? A charge? (on his own player)." "Coach your player put his head down to dribble through a double team, lost the ball, and didn't displace anybody." It was something--ugly basketball--but not illegal. The T on the play and I talked during the next timeout and we both saw the exact same thing.

I prefer to pre-game that if we have bodies on floor we should either have a whistle or be able to explain how they got there. At times easier said than done but the focus should be on maintaining angles, refereeing the defense, and getting the play right.

Guessing and penalizing a player and team who did nothing worse than a no call IMO. Especially if you are doing so out of your primary.