"Shooter Changes His Mind" Travel (Video)

[potato]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The definition of a dribble is to push the ball to the floor, one or more times. If the ball is not directed toward another player, I see it as a dribble, whether it is touched again or not.

even if the player intended to pass but due to the situation can only bounce a pass not directed toward another teammate? have anyone actually seen such calls? i mean if it did i believe everyone except the ref who whistled it would be in ?????? mode.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by potato

even if the player intended to pass but due to the situation can only bounce a pass not directed toward another teammate? have anyone actually seen such calls? i mean if it did i believe everyone except the ref who whistled it would be in ?????? mode.

I don't mean a bad pass. I mean a player who end a dribble, gives a head fake, then forgets and pushes the ball straight to the floor and heads to the basket. I'm talking about a player who drops the ball straight to the floor to avoid having his shot blocked. As always, judgment is involved.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by johnsonboys03

I agree. What is the definition of a dribble? Dropping the ball behind a team ate would be a pass in my book, not a dribble. However I would like to see the play to make final ruling.

The video is posted above.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by potato

the example given is not detailed enough, did A1 dropped the ball while still in the air? because what i see the ball left A1 before he landed, whether it was a shot/block/pass/drop doesn't matter.

if A1 becomes the 1st person to touch the ball he intentionally dropped or passed then it's a violation.

but then again after watching the video clearly it's a violation. It was no longer a blocked shot when the shooter decides to lob the ball out, apparently he was the 1st player to touch the ball despite not able to get possession, it was not a fumble so he's not allowed to be the 1st player to touch the ball again, which he intentionally did. Traveling? Double dribble?

What additional details did you need?

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

A1 goes up to shoot, then changes mind and looks to A2, who has moved from his and doesn't know A1 was looking to him. A1 drops the ball behind A2.
...
BTW, after the ball hits the floor, B1 touches ball first just before A1 does. Play is no-called and B1 ended up with possession.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I wouldn't call it immediately if a teammate was in the area. But he was the first to touch, which seals the deal no matter what.

He wasn't the first to touch. The defender got his hand underneath and got to the ball first.

Obviously if A1 is the first to touch, it's a travel.

[potato]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I don't mean a bad pass. I mean a player who end a dribble, gives a head fake, then forgets and pushes the ball straight to the floor and heads to the basket. I'm talking about a player who drops the ball straight to the floor to avoid having his shot blocked. As always, judgment is involved.

but previously you mentioned what happens after the player "drops" the ball doesn't really matter it can still be treated as a start of a new dribble when the ball bounces the floor, whether or not the same player touches the ball after the bounce, the case you are referring to is clearly a double dribble. but we were talking about player getting called for double dribble just by dropping/bouncing the ball on the ground without touching the ball after the bounce.

[potato]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

He wasn't the first to touch. The defender got his hand underneath and got to the ball first.

Obviously if A1 is the first to touch, it's a travel.

isn't it a double dribble? by dropping the ball and being the 1st touch the ball after the drop.

[potato]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

What additional details did you need?

well the written story ended with A1 dropping the ball, the video clearly shows more after the drop...

[Pantherdreams]

Doesn't a patient whistle solve most of this. If he drops it and teammate collects it: pass. If he drops it and the other team recovers it: turnover we're still playing. If he drops it and then tries to gather it again you could apply the travel or double dribble depending on your interp of his actions. I understand that we want an absolute she can or can't do x, but in these situations isn't it just as effective to hold off on your whistle and let the play sort itself out with no debate about intent vs result.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by potato

well the written story ended with A1 dropping the ball, the video clearly shows more after the drop.

You need to go back and read again.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Doesn't a patient whistle solve most of this. If he drops it and teammate collects it: pass. If he drops it and the other team recovers it: turnover we're still playing. If he drops it and then tries to gather it again you could apply the travel or double dribble depending on your interp of his actions. I understand that we want an absolute she can or can't do x, but in these situations isn't it just as effective to hold off on your whistle and let the play sort itself out with no debate about intent vs result.

That's how I look at it.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The defender got his hand underneath and got to the ball first.

I missed it.

[just another ref]

Here's the deal, for those who haven't heard it before. As cited earlier by Nevada, when a dribble is illegal it occurs when the ball is pushed to the floor.

4.15.4 SITUATION A:

As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble.

RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred. (9-5)


People say you can't judge intent. You can judge intent. We do it all the time on fouls. Two shots? Worst case scenario is this. A1 goes up to shoot, sees his shot will be blocked and drops the ball straight to the floor. He then assumes an aggressive stance and tries to screen the defender away from the ball while yelling to his teammate: "Hey, A2! Come get the ball. I can't touch it!" B1 then takes a swipe at the ball and knocks it out of bounds. If you didn't call the violation immediately, you give the ball back to Team A. I think this is wrong.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

... when a dribble is illegal it occurs when the ball is pushed to the floor.

But one can also start a legal bounce pass when "the ball is pushed to the floor".

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

But one can also start a legal bounce pass when "the ball is pushed to the floor".

A try which touches nothing may also hit the floor and the player may legally go and pick it up, but I have to judge that it was a try. If a player pushes/drops/throws the ball straight to the floor and there is no teammate there to retrieve the ball immediately, this is not a pass or a try. If it was not a fumble, then by default it is a dribble and is accompanied by the resulting consequences.