"Shooter Changes His Mind" Travel (Video)

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

By the literal rule definition (dribble), I agree. But this physical act can also be the start of a pass (by rule, and by definition). After the ball is released from the ball handler's hand, a lot of other things can happen besides the continuation of said dribble (bounce pass to teammate, steal by defense, ball contacts boundary line, etc.). Why make a guess here, even an educated guess (good judgment based on experience), when by allowing the play to develop (something that all good officials, including you, will often do in many situations throughout the game), for a fraction of a second, will take away any guesswork on the part of the official? When I officiate, I hate making guesses (block/charge, foul/incidental, carrying, out of bounds, etc.). If I'm guessing, I'm probably not calling something.

Intent and purpose of the rule comes into play. If a player jumps he is not allowed to return to the floor before releasing the ball on a pass or dribble. If there is a teammate anywhere around and I can imagine that his release is directed toward that teammate, fine, I give him the benefit of the doubt. On the other hand, if there is no teammate and he simply drops the ball straight to the floor, no way can I consider this a pass. One might say this is a moot point, that if there is no teammate in the picture, either the defender will get the ball or the shooter will touch it. But other things can also happen. If the defender swipes at the ball at this point and knocks it out of bounds at this point, this would unfairly penalize the defense who did his job perfectly and created a turnover.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Intent and purpose of the rule comes into play. If a player jumps he is not allowed to return to the floor before releasing the ball on a pass or dribble. If there is a teammate anywhere around and I can imagine that his release is directed toward that teammate, fine, I give him the benefit of the doubt. On the other hand, if there is no teammate and he simply drops the ball straight to the floor, no way can I consider this a pass. One might say this is a moot point, that if there is no teammate in the picture, either the defender will get the ball or the shooter will touch it. But other things can also happen. If the defender swipes at the ball at this point and knocks it out of bounds at this point, this would unfairly penalize the defense who did his job perfectly and created a turnover.

I get your point, but I'm still doing it my way. I'm sometimes forced to do it (not ready for a train wreck), but I still hate guessing, and I'm not guessing here. It may take me an extra split second, but, at least, to me, it's worth it to get it right.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A subsequent touch is not necessary to define a dribble.

take a look at 4.15.4 C, 9.5 (these two basically same play) and 4.44.3 A.

they all seem to stand for the proposition that the player has to be the first to touch the ball for there to be a violation.
the 4.15.4 play is the one where A1 ends dribble and then throws it off his opponents backboard or an official, immediately recovers ball. wording says throwing ball off backboard or official is start of another dribble, PROVIDED A1 is the first to touch it after striking board or official.

4.44.3 play deals with the player who jumps to shoot, ball is touched by B but not knocked loose or out of his hand. shooter then drops ball to floor and is first to touch it--violation. clearly isn't trying to pass to another player in that play either. still violation is being first to touch it. the rules definitions/case plays make us wait to see what happens next before we are able to characterize what the drop of the ball actually is…if player who dropped it with no pivot foot is first to touch it--illegal dribble. if another player touches it first--pass. if the ball just sits there with no one touching --Limbo

i hear what your saying but i think rules require the touch.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

I like that analogy. If there's any chance whatsoever that the action could be construed as a pass (no matter how ugly), then in my opinion the player gets the benefit of the doubt. Of course he then can't be the first to touch it if he had already ended a dribble (9-5-3).
If, however, you're 100% sure he was avoiding something (blocked shot or travel) and the ball goes more or less straight down toward the floor, then I have a travel (for releasing the ball on a dribble after the pivot foot has been lifted).

Judgment call.

While I'm probably waiting to see who touches it first every time, I don't really disagree with much here except for the red. I'm not sure how that's relevant.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A subsequent touch is not necessary to define a dribble.

No, but it will be required before I can identify one.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by BigCat

take a look at 4.15.4 C, 9.5 (these two basically same play) and 4.44.3 A.

they all seem to stand for the proposition that the player has to be the first to touch the ball for there to be a violation.
the 4.15.4 play is the one where A1 ends dribble and then throws it off his opponents backboard or an official, immediately recovers ball. wording says throwing ball off backboard or official is start of another dribble, PROVIDED A1 is the first to touch it after striking board or official.

4.44.3 play deals with the player who jumps to shoot, ball is touched by B but not knocked loose or out of his hand. shooter then drops ball to floor and is first to touch it--violation. clearly isn't trying to pass to another player in that play either. still violation is being first to touch it. the rules definitions/case plays make us wait to see what happens next before we are able to characterize what the drop of the ball actually is…if player who dropped it with no pivot foot is first to touch it--illegal dribble. if another player touches it first--pass. if the ball just sits there with no one touching --Limbo

i hear what your saying but i think rules require the touch.

I agree. Another good example is 7.1.1D A1 saves the ball from going OB by catching and "tossing" it back to the court. At this point we apparently should not interpret that "toss" as a dribble or a pass. But once A1 recovers the tossed ball it became the start of the dribble. Safe to say if a teammate recovered the tossed ball it would have been a pass .
IOW: "It ain't what it is until it is what it ain't."

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

take a look at 4.15.4 C, 9.5 (these two basically same play) and 4.44.3 A.

I'm glad that the cavalry finally showed up. I thought I was a goner. What took you guys so long? Rescuing a damsel in distress tied to a train track?

4.15.4 SITUATION C: After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball:
(a) against the opponent’s backboard and catches the rebound; (b) against an
official, immediately recovers the ball and dribbles again; or (c) against his/her
own backboard in an attempt to score (try), catches the rebound and dribbles
again. RULING: A1 has violated in both (a) and (b). Throwing the ball against the
opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is
first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. In (c), the action is
legal. Once the ball is released on the try, there is no player or team control, therefore,
A1 can recover the rebound and begin a dribble.

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

4.44.3 SITUATION A: A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and: (a) slaps the
ball out of A1’s hands; (b) touches the ball but does not prevent A1 from releasing
the ball; (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball; or
(d) touches the ball and A1 drops it to the floor and touches it first after it
bounces. RULING: In (a) and (b), the ball remains live. In (c), a traveling violation.
In (d), a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Since
the touching did not prevent the pass or try in (b), (c) and (d), the ball remains
live and subsequent action is covered by rules which apply to the situation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by billyu2

"It ain't what it is until it is what it ain't."

Confucius?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

Seriously? You can dribble off the officials? That's a thing? How did I not know this when I was playing. Any of you ever had it happen?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by youngump

You can dribble off the officials? Any of you ever had it happen?

I've never had anyone dribble off of me, but I have set several outstanding screens in my thirty-four years of officiating.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Confucius?

Either him or maybe Yogi Berra.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Ever hear of a lead bounce pass? Just kidding.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. I'm not sounding my whistle for a travel as soon as he releases the ball, because a lot of things can happen in the subsequent seconds that make this a legal play, including a steal by the defense. The only thing that would make it illegal, is if he's the first to touch the ball after the release. Only then is it a travel, for lifting the pivot foot before the ball is released to start a dribble.

I agree this is getting really deep in the weeds, but I like the theoretical aspect.

The 4-31 definition of a pass being "to another player," was eye opening. (Definitions are so helpful yet so easily overlooked.) So based on my scenario earlier of a player who had not dribbled, jumped but then bailed on the try and passed, only to have no teammate there and go get the ball, I now agree that's a travel because if it wasn't a pass, what else can the act constitute other than a dribble (assuming it isn't an obvious fumble)?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

I like the theoretical aspect.

I love the challenge, and want the one, true, answer, if possible, even when I'm on the wrong side of the debate.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

... player who had not dribbled, jumped but then bailed on the try and passed, only to have no teammate there and go get the ball, I now agree that's a travel because if it wasn't a pass, what else can the act constitute other than a dribble

Right answer. Borderline wrong reason. It has nothing to do with a pass, other than if it had been a "true" pass, it would have been legal. It's a travel because he lifted his pivot foot before he started, what turned out to be, his dribble. One could explain this call without ever using the word pass.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Right answer. Borderline wrong reason. It has nothing to do with a pass, other than if it had been a "true" pass, it would have been legal. It's a travel because he lifted his pivot foot before he started, what turned out to be, his dribble. One could explain this call without ever using the word pass.

I'm good with that. Fully agree.