"Shooter Changes His Mind" Travel (Video)

[Raymond]

Wofford @ UT-C
12:35 of 2nd half
MASN (cable network)

A1 goes up to shoot, then changes mind and looks to A2, who has moved from his and doesn't know A1 was looking to him. A1 drops the ball behind A2.

Who says that is a travel right away?
Who doesn't? (me)

Where's a poll when you need one.

BTW, after the ball hits the floor, B1 touches ball first just before A1 does. Play is no-called and B1 ended up with possession.

[just another ref]

I see this the same as intentional grounding. If there is (was) a player "in the vicinity", no violation. If this player is all alone with the defender and obviously drops the ball because he is avoiding a blocked shot, I have an immediate violation.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I see this the same as intentional grounding. If there is (was) a player "in the vicinity", no violation. If this player is all alone with the defender and obviously drops the ball because he is avoiding a blocked shot, I have an immediate violation.

I like that analogy. If there's any chance whatsoever that the action could be construed as a pass (no matter how ugly), then in my opinion the player gets the benefit of the doubt. Of course he then can't be the first to touch it if he had already ended a dribble (9-5-3).

If, however, you're 100% sure he was avoiding something (blocked shot or travel) and the ball goes more or less straight down toward the floor, then I have a travel (for releasing the ball on a dribble after the pivot foot has been lifted).

Judgment call.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

I like that analogy. If there's any chance whatsoever that the action could be construed as a pass (no matter how ugly), then in my opinion the player gets the benefit of the doubt. Of course he then can't be the first to touch it if he had already ended a dribble (9-5-3).
....

He can't be the first to touch regardless, if he jumped prior to releasing the ball.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

He can't be the first to touch regardless, if he jumped prior to releasing the ball.

Suppose I receive the ball and don't begin a dribble. Then I jump up for a high pass to a teammate, but the teammate doesn't see it coming and clears out. I race over to the ball and start dribbling it. Not a violation, right?

So how is it any different if I receive a pass, go up for a shot, realize it isn't going to work, and "pass" the ball. If I hadn't dribbled in the first place, can't I now go to the ball and dribble it?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Suppose I receive the ball and don't begin a dribble. Then I jump up for a high pass to a teammate, but the teammate doesn't see it coming and clears out. I race over to the ball and start dribbling it. Not a violation, right?

Wrong. Player's pivot foot left the floor before he released the ball for the dribble. Traveling.

[BillyMac]

When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. If, in this situation, the defender simply touches the ball, and the airborne shooter returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. If, in this situation, the defender simply touches the ball, and the airborne shooter returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

As stated above, this part may not be necessary to have a violation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

As stated above, this part may not be necessary to have a violation.

When officials are able to read minds, and we know that this is definitely the start of a dribble, and definitely not the start of a pass, then I would agree with you. Right now, it's worded to fit all rules pertaining to the limitations of moving one's pivot foot, assuming that the official lacks the ability to read minds, or predict the future.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

When officials are able to read minds, and we know that this is definitely the start of a dribble, and definitely not the start of a pass, then I would agree with you. Right now, it's worded to fit all rules pertaining to the limitations of moving one's pivot foot.

No need to read minds, it's judgment. A pass is throwing, pushing, or batting the ball to another player. If there is no other player in the picture, there is no pass. If you don't want to call the violation, you could just call it a really bad shot.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

No need to read minds, it's judgment. A pass is throwing, pushing, or batting the ball to another player. If there is no other player in the picture, there is no pass. If you don't want to call the violation, you could just call it a really bad shot.

There are four teammates (as well as five opponents, and the player himself) on a 4200 square foot court. I'm waiting until I see who next touches the ball. Why rush to judgment?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

There are four teammates (as well as five opponents, and the player himself) on a 4200 square foot court. I'm waiting until I see who next touches the ball. Why rush to judgment?

If he doesn't have the presence of mind to at least push it in the general direction of a teammate who is in the general vicinity, I'm not bailing him out.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If he doesn't have the presence of mind to at least push it in the general direction of a teammate who is in the general vicinity, I'm not bailing him out.

Ever hear of a lead bounce pass? Just kidding.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. I'm not sounding my whistle for a travel as soon as he releases the ball, because a lot of things can happen in the subsequent seconds that make this a legal play, including a steal by the defense. The only thing that would make it illegal, is if he's the first to touch the ball after the release. Only then is it a travel, for lifting the pivot foot before the ball is released to start a dribble.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Ever hear of a lead bounce pass? Just kidding.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. I'm not sounding my whistle for a travel as soon as he releases the ball, because a lot of things can happen in the subsequent seconds that make this a legal play, including a steal by the defense. The only thing that would make it illegal, is if he's the first to touch the ball after the release. Only then is it a travel, for lifting the pivot foot before the ball is released to start a dribble.

A subsequent touch is not necessary to define a dribble.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A subsequent touch is not necessary to define a dribble.

By the literal rule definition (dribble), I agree. But this physical act can also be the start of a pass (by rule, and by definition). After the ball is released from the ball handler's hand, a lot of other things can happen besides the continuation of said dribble (bounce pass to teammate, steal by defense, ball contacts boundary line, etc.). Why make a guess here, even an educated guess (good judgment based on experience), when by allowing the play to develop (something that all good officials, including you, will often do in many situations throughout the game), for a fraction of a second, will take away any guesswork on the part of the official? When I officiate, I hate making guesses (block/charge, foul/incidental, carrying, out of bounds, etc.). If I'm guessing, I'm probably not calling something. I like to be as sure as I can possibly be.