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-   -   "Shooter Changes His Mind" Travel (Video) (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/98981-shooter-changes-his-mind-travel-video.html)

Raymond Mon Jan 05, 2015 09:50pm

"Shooter Changes His Mind" Travel (Video)
 
Wofford @ UT-C
12:35 of 2nd half
MASN (cable network)

A1 goes up to shoot, then changes mind and looks to A2, who has moved from his and doesn't know A1 was looking to him. A1 drops the ball behind A2.

Who says that is a travel right away?
Who doesn't? (me)

Where's a poll when you need one. :D

BTW, after the ball hits the floor, B1 touches ball first just before A1 does. Play is no-called and B1 ended up with possession.

just another ref Mon Jan 05, 2015 10:07pm

I see this the same as intentional grounding. If there is (was) a player "in the vicinity", no violation. If this player is all alone with the defender and obviously drops the ball because he is avoiding a blocked shot, I have an immediate violation.

crosscountry55 Mon Jan 05, 2015 10:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 948841)
I see this the same as intentional grounding. If there is (was) a player "in the vicinity", no violation. If this player is all alone with the defender and obviously drops the ball because he is avoiding a blocked shot, I have an immediate violation.

I like that analogy. If there's any chance whatsoever that the action could be construed as a pass (no matter how ugly), then in my opinion the player gets the benefit of the doubt. Of course he then can't be the first to touch it if he had already ended a dribble (9-5-3).

If, however, you're 100% sure he was avoiding something (blocked shot or travel) and the ball goes more or less straight down toward the floor, then I have a travel (for releasing the ball on a dribble after the pivot foot has been lifted).

Judgment call.

Raymond Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 948850)
I like that analogy. If there's any chance whatsoever that the action could be construed as a pass (no matter how ugly), then in my opinion the player gets the benefit of the doubt. Of course he then can't be the first to touch it if he had already ended a dribble (9-5-3).
....

He can't be the first to touch regardless, if he jumped prior to releasing the ball.

crosscountry55 Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 948854)
He can't be the first to touch regardless, if he jumped prior to releasing the ball.

Suppose I receive the ball and don't begin a dribble. Then I jump up for a high pass to a teammate, but the teammate doesn't see it coming and clears out. I race over to the ball and start dribbling it. Not a violation, right?

So how is it any different if I receive a pass, go up for a shot, realize it isn't going to work, and "pass" the ball. If I hadn't dribbled in the first place, can't I now go to the ball and dribble it?

BillyMac Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:10am

Travelin' Man (Lynyrd Skynyrd, 1976) ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 948855)
Suppose I receive the ball and don't begin a dribble. Then I jump up for a high pass to a teammate, but the teammate doesn't see it coming and clears out. I race over to the ball and start dribbling it. Not a violation, right?

Wrong. Player's pivot foot left the floor before he released the ball for the dribble. Traveling.

BillyMac Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:12am

Who You Gonna Call ???
 
https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6230/6...473e048e_m.jpg

When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. If, in this situation, the defender simply touches the ball, and the airborne shooter returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

just another ref Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 948859)
https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6230/6...473e048e_m.jpg

When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. If, in this situation, the defender simply touches the ball, and the airborne shooter returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.



As stated above, this part may not be necessary to have a violation.

BillyMac Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:27am

Madame Zelda, High School Basketball Official Extraordinaire ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 948860)
As stated above, this part may not be necessary to have a violation.

When officials are able to read minds, and we know that this is definitely the start of a dribble, and definitely not the start of a pass, then I would agree with you. Right now, it's worded to fit all rules pertaining to the limitations of moving one's pivot foot, assuming that the official lacks the ability to read minds, or predict the future.

just another ref Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:30am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 948861)
When officials are able to read minds, and we know that this is definitely the start of a dribble, and definitely not the start of a pass, then I would agree with you. Right now, it's worded to fit all rules pertaining to the limitations of moving one's pivot foot.

No need to read minds, it's judgment. A pass is throwing, pushing, or batting the ball to another player. If there is no other player in the picture, there is no pass. If you don't want to call the violation, you could just call it a really bad shot.

BillyMac Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:44am

Got A Hot Date After The Game ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 948862)
No need to read minds, it's judgment. A pass is throwing, pushing, or batting the ball to another player. If there is no other player in the picture, there is no pass. If you don't want to call the violation, you could just call it a really bad shot.

There are four teammates (as well as five opponents, and the player himself) on a 4200 square foot court. I'm waiting until I see who next touches the ball. Why rush to judgment?

just another ref Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 948864)
There are four teammates (as well as five opponents, and the player himself) on a 4200 square foot court. I'm waiting until I see who next touches the ball. Why rush to judgment?

If he doesn't have the presence of mind to at least push it in the general direction of a teammate who is in the general vicinity, I'm not bailing him out.

BillyMac Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:55am

Subsequent Seconds ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 948865)
If he doesn't have the presence of mind to at least push it in the general direction of a teammate who is in the general vicinity, I'm not bailing him out.

Ever hear of a lead bounce pass? Just kidding.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. I'm not sounding my whistle for a travel as soon as he releases the ball, because a lot of things can happen in the subsequent seconds that make this a legal play, including a steal by the defense. The only thing that would make it illegal, is if he's the first to touch the ball after the release. Only then is it a travel, for lifting the pivot foot before the ball is released to start a dribble.

just another ref Tue Jan 06, 2015 01:11am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 948868)
Ever hear of a lead bounce pass? Just kidding.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. I'm not sounding my whistle for a travel as soon as he releases the ball, because a lot of things can happen in the subsequent seconds that make this a legal play, including a steal by the defense. The only thing that would make it illegal, is if he's the first to touch the ball after the release. Only then is it a travel, for lifting the pivot foot before the ball is released to start a dribble.

A subsequent touch is not necessary to define a dribble.

BillyMac Tue Jan 06, 2015 01:20am

Again, What's The Rush ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 948878)
A subsequent touch is not necessary to define a dribble.

By the literal rule definition (dribble), I agree. But this physical act can also be the start of a pass (by rule, and by definition). After the ball is released from the ball handler's hand, a lot of other things can happen besides the continuation of said dribble (bounce pass to teammate, steal by defense, ball contacts boundary line, etc.). Why make a guess here, even an educated guess (good judgment based on experience), when by allowing the play to develop (something that all good officials, including you, will often do in many situations throughout the game), for a fraction of a second, will take away any guesswork on the part of the official? When I officiate, I hate making guesses (block/charge, foul/incidental, carrying, out of bounds, etc.). If I'm guessing, I'm probably not calling something. I like to be as sure as I can possibly be.


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