FSU v Florida tip-in

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Somewhat of a paradox because if the ball would have been in the middle of the net when time expired and then gotten stuck there, the goal has to count, but if it continues through without issue, then it is required to have been all the way clear of the net before time expires in order to be a successful goal. A curious ruling.

NFHS:

Who says that "it is required to have been all the way clear of the net before time expires in order to be a successful goal"? The rule doesn't say that:

5-1: A goal is made when a live ball enters the basket from above and remains in or passes through.

At first, I thought the same thing as Nevadaref, until I looked up the definition of the word "through":

through (throo) prep. 1. In one side and out the opposite or another side of: went through the tunnel. 2. Among or between; in the midst of: a walk through the flowers.

Using the first definition would certainly lead to Nevadaref's, above cited, curious ruling. But using the second definition would allow an official to count the basket. I've got to believe that the NFHS had the second definition in mind when they wrote the rule.

Also, in Casebook 5.1.1.A, the NFHS counts the hoop using the phrase "into the basket", nothing about a tied up net, or nothing about "all the way clear of the net". In fact, there's nothing about the net. Period. So, what does "into the basket" mean?

1-10-1: Each basket shall consist of a single metal ring, 18 inches in inside diameter, its flange and braces, and a white-cord 12-mesh net, 15 to 18 inches in length, suspended from beneath the ring.

So for a basket to count, the ball simply has to be "in the midst of" the ring, or the net. It can't be "in the midst of" the flange, or the braces, since these are objects that would never allow balls to pass through them, but would only allow balls to rest on them. I suppose that the ball could also rest on the ring (in theory, for only a fraction of a second); since the ball is resting on the ring, it isn't "in the midst of" the ring, so it wouldn't count.

With the bottom intact, the laced basketball never would have gone "in one side and out the opposite" side of the peach basket, but it could be "in the midst of" the peach basket. That's why I wear a bracelet that says WWND (What Would Naismith Do) when I officiate.

There's more than one way to skin a cat (apologies to BigCat).

Anybody got a citation to dispute my hypothesis?

Another question to ponder: How far "into the basket", or into "the midst of" the basket, does the ball have to be for it to count? Certainly not in the cylinder above the plane of the ring. How about a millimeter of the ball below the plane of the ring? Half the diameter of the ball below the plane of the ring? All the ball below the plane of the ring?

[griblets]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So for a basket to count, the ball simply has to be "in the midst of" the ring, or the net.

I understand where you are going with this, but by this conclusion, a ball that goes nearly half way in but rattles out (think of a long jump shot) would have to count since the ball was "in the midst of" the ring. That certainly isn't the intent of the rule.

For me, until it is better defined, I'll stick with the first definition of through.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by griblets

I understand where you are going with this, but by this conclusion, a ball that goes nearly half way in but rattles out (think of a long jump shot) would have to count since the ball was "in the midst of" the ring. That certainly isn't the intent of the rule.

Great point, something that we need to ponder along with how far "into the basket", or into "the midst of" the basket, does the ball have to be for it to count?

C'mon NFHS. Just what does "into the basket" really mean?

[bwburke94]

Obvious question from a fan:

If the Florida players knew the definition of "try", they would have known that there must be at least 0.1 seconds left on the clock for the basket to count. What would have happened if Florida attempted to inbound the ball while FSU was storming the court?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bwburke94

Obvious question from a fan:

If the Florida players knew the definition of "try", they would have known that there must be at least 0.1 seconds left on the clock for the basket to count. What would have happened if Florida attempted to inbound the ball while FSU was storming the court?

The clock is going to stop and there's going to be a review anyway, so the storming of the court didn't cause a delay. No T.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Great point, something that we need to ponder along with how far "into the basket", or into "the midst of" the basket, does the ball have to be for it to count?

C'mon NFHS. Just what does "into the basket" really mean?

Don't we "know" that if the ball is 90% through, and gets batted back out, it's BI? Doesn't that mean that the ball must clear the net before the try counts?

I think for this discussion, we can ignore the "enters from above" part -- that's just there so the ball entering from below doesn't count. So, its a goal when the ball gets stuck, or passes through (not *is passing* through).

And, in NCAAW (and NY HS girls), the clock doesn't stop in the last minute until the ball celers the net -- so this situation is the same.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Don't we "know" that if the ball is 90% through, and gets batted back out, it's BI? Doesn't that mean that the ball must clear the net before the try counts?

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

And, in NCAAW, the clock doesn't stop in the last minute until the ball clears the net.

Good points, but it still doesn't address Nevadaref's paradox of "if the ball would have been in the middle of the net when time expired and then gotten stuck there, the goal has to count, but if it continues through without issue, then it is required to have been all the way clear of the net before time expires in order to be a successful goal".

A few other odd plays regarding when the ball goes "into the basket":

After a basket, the net gets caught up on the rim, unnoticed by the officials. After the subsequent inbound, there is a quick turnover, the ball comes back the other way, and a player takes a long, high arcing, jump shot. Maybe due to the caught up net, or maybe for some other reason, the ball enters the top of the rim, dead center, but eventually rattles out. What do we have?

Same play, but the net isn't caught up. No basket. Right?

Once again. C'mon NFHS. Just what does "into the basket" really mean?

[JRutledge]

Are we all in agreement that the try ended on this play?

I am not reading anything in the rule that would treat this any different than if the ball was by a defender. I am very willing to be convinced here, but the rule does not say this try is over in a clear way.

Peace

[Adam]

The try is over once it's clear that it cannot go in. There's a case (NFHS, anyway) that clearly states once a try drops below the rim and hits another player or the floor, the try is over.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

After a basket, the net gets caught up on the rim, unnoticed by the officials. After the subsequent inbound, there is a quick turnover, the ball comes back the other way, and a player takes a long, high arcing, jump shot. Maybe due to the caught up net, or maybe for some other reason, the ball enters the top of the rim, dead center, but eventually rattles out. What do we have?

No basket.

I don't agree with Nevada's paradox. It's not a basket until it passes through or until it becomes caught. If the ball enters the basket, time expires, and the ball *then* becomes caught, no goal.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I don't agree with Nevada's paradox. If the ball enters the basket, time expires, and the ball *then* becomes caught, no goal.

How about ball enters basket, becomes caught, and then, time expires?

Doesn't seem fair to count that goal and not count a goal where the ball enters the basket, top of the ball is 95% past the bottom of the net, at the same time that time expires.

Posts from esteemed members regarding "successful" and "unsuccessful" (above) may solve help this problem, but I have to go to my day job, so I'll deal with it later.