Just like a test question!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

I agree with this, except I'm not using a "good guess". Officials can correct obviois mistakes by the timer when he/she has definate information relative to the time involved. A visible count is not required -- any definative official information may be used.

In this case, you have definate knowledge that more than zero seconds elapsed. Start from there and go up until you are no longer certain that much time elapsed. I might guess that 5 seconds elapsed, but if I'm only certain that at least 3 seconds elapsed, then I'm only taking 3 seconds off the clock.

If I don't have a count, I'm not doing anything, because I don't have enough information.

[just another ref]

I ended a game once based on a count when the clock didn't start in the last few seconds. It was jr. high girls. Home team was down 3. Visitors booted the ball out of bounds with a second or two showing on the clock. I announced the game was over. Home coach later said "Thanks for robbing us of the chance to tie the game with a 3................even though we haven't made one all season. "

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I agree. Any count which is going to be used to remove time needs to be a visible count in this age of video. I'm not getting called in later to defend a mental count. The arm swings will show up on the video.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That is what lifetime sub-varsity officials do. They don't like what the correct ruling is, so they opt not to follow it and make up a number. Don't guess!

You are ontradicting yourself there.

A 3 second count is not a guess. If you have one, you have definite knowledge as much as you do on a visual count. If you don't use it because you are worried about whether someone else will believe it, that seems to be against what you normally stand for.

[mutantducky]

Agreed Hokie.

If this happens to me, and I hope it doesn't as I've never had a situation like it. But if I know some time has elapsed, then I will take the conservative approach. So if I think 5 seconds have gone off, then I'll take 3 seconds off. You know the clock was stopped at a certain time. You know the ball was inbounded and dribbled. Time had to have gone off. It would be absurd in this situation not to take some time off.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

Agreed Hokie.

If this happens to me, and I hope it doesn't as I've never had a situation like it. But if I know some time has elapsed, then I will take the conservative approach. So if I think 5 seconds have gone off, then I'll take 3 seconds off. You know the clock was stopped at a certain time. You know the ball was inbounded and dribbled. Time had to have gone off. It would be absurd in this situation not to take some time off.

May seem absurd, but it's the rule. Going to your assigner with "well, I know something had to come off, and I thought it was probably 5 seconds, so I picked 3" could get you in trouble. Going to your assigner with "I know time should have come off, but none of us had a count so we left it alone" is backed by rule.

You can get away with the former in lower level games. I wouldn't try it in anything above middle school, though.

[mutantducky]

but logically I think it would be far better to take some time off. And I think there would be less of a problem as well. I doubt anyone would care.
For me I think option 2 would be far better and would be much more agreeable to everyone involved in the game.

Option 1- Sorry coach, we can't take time off the game even though clearly time did elapse because we don't have definite knowledge how much time went .

Option 2- Coach, we don't know how much time went off, but we think at least 3 seconds went off so we are going to take that off the clock.


I don't always go by the rulebook if a situation doesn't call for it. (Of course 99.9% of the times you should!!!) I had one of my first blarge calls earlier this season, and just called both coaches over who saw that the play could have gone either way. The game was running well and we just told them instead of working that out we will just say two( ha) inadvertent whistles and did POI. Both coaches were good with it as both wanted to avoid fouls on their key players involved in the play. Quick clear-up and things worked out well after. Yes, normally I would call it by the book here, but this was a game with good coaches and players where it could have been avoided without the blarge mess.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

but logically I think it would be far better to take some time off. And I think there would be less of a problem as well. I doubt anyone would care.
For me I think option 2 would be far better and would be much more agreeable to everyone involved in the game.

Option 1- Sorry coach, we can't take time off the game even though clearly time did elapse because we don't have definite knowledge how much time went .

Option 2- Coach, we don't know how much time went off, but we think at least 3 seconds went off so we are going to take that off the clock.

And you'll get away with either until you run into a coach and assigner who knows the rule.

[rlarry]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

but logically I think it would be far better to take some time off. And I think there would be less of a problem as well. I doubt anyone would care.
For me I think option 2 would be far better and would be much more agreeable to everyone involved in the game.

Option 1- Sorry coach, we can't take time off the game even though clearly time did elapse because we don't have definite knowledge how much time went .

Option 2- Coach, we don't know how much time went off, but we think at least 3 seconds went off so we are going to take that off the clock.

I am never talking to a coach and using the word "think". In this situation one coach could say "I think 5 seconds came off" The other says "I think 1 second came off".

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by Adam

May seem absurd, but it's the rule. Going to your assigner with "well, I know something had to come off, and I thought it was probably 5 seconds, so I picked 3" could get you in trouble. Going to your assigner with "I know time should have come off, but none of us had a count so we left it alone" is backed by rule.

You can get away with the former in lower level games. I wouldn't try it in anything above middle school, though.

Just to clarify, that's not what I'd be going to my assignor saying. And that's not the thought process. As I said before, I'm not guessing.

I'd be following the rule that states "an official's count or other official information may be used to make a correction" and that a timing mistake can be corrected when the official "has definite information relative to the time involved".

The "official information" is that the ball was legally touched inbounds and some time has elapsed. The "definate information" is what I would get with my partners to determine ... specifically that "definitly at least X seconds had elapsed". A visible count is not necessary. If I'm observing a play and determine that a player was holding the ball but not-closely guarded for 3 seconds, passed the ball to a teammate who then shot, I have definite information that at least 3 seconds have elapsed, even though I did not have a visible count because the player was not closely guarded.

I'd be going to my assignor saying that I had definate knowledge that at least 3 seconds had elapsed and I used that knowledge to correct an obvious timing mistake. How is that incorrect by rule?

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

Just to clarify, that's not what I'd be going to my assignor saying. And that's not the thought process. As I said before, I'm not guessing.

I'd be following the rule that states "an official's count or other official information may be used to make a correction" and that a timing mistake can be corrected when the official "has definite information relative to the time involved".

The "official information" is that the ball was legally touched inbounds and some time has elapsed. The "definate information" is what I would get with my partners to determine ... specifically that "definitly at least X seconds had elapsed". A visible count is not necessary. If I'm observing a play and determine that a player was holding the ball but not-closely guarded for 3 seconds, passed the ball to a teammate who then shot, I have definite information that at least 3 seconds have elapsed, even though I did not have a visible count because the player was not closely guarded.

I'd be going to my assignor saying that I had definate knowledge that at least 3 seconds had elapsed and I used that knowledge to correct an obvious timing mistake. How is that incorrect by rule?

If you do not definitely know how much time, you simply can't guess. If an official had a closely guarded or backcourt count going, that's considered definite knowledge of how much time. We can't just arbitrarily pick a number.

5-10
ART. 1

The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock.

[so cal lurker]

I really don't understand why some posters are going through contortions about what they will do without a count in game end situations to distort their guesses into something besides a guess when there is a very simple solution, which I believe was mentioned dozens of posts ago.

When in the end game situation, if youaren't responsible for a count, simply count as a backstop to the official timer until you know the clock actually started.

Am I missing something here?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

I really don't understand why some posters are going through contortions about what they will do without a count in game end situations to distort their guesses into something besides a guess when there is a very simple solution, which I believe was mentioned dozens of posts ago.

When in the end game situation, if youaren't responsible for a count, simply count as a backstop to the official timer until you know the clock actually started.

Am I missing something here?

I've done it before (end of a 1st quarter) and would have no problems doing it again.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

Just to clarify, that's not what I'd be going to my assignor saying. And that's not the thought process. As I said before, I'm not guessing.

I'd be following the rule that states "an official's count or other official information may be used to make a correction" and that a timing mistake can be corrected when the official "has definite information relative to the time involved".

The "official information" is that the ball was legally touched inbounds and some time has elapsed. The "definate information" is what I would get with my partners to determine ... specifically that "definitly at least X seconds had elapsed". A visible count is not necessary. If I'm observing a play and determine that a player was holding the ball but not-closely guarded for 3 seconds, passed the ball to a teammate who then shot, I have definite information that at least 3 seconds have elapsed, even though I did not have a visible count because the player was not closely guarded.

I'd be going to my assignor saying that I had definate knowledge that at least 3 seconds had elapsed and I used that knowledge to correct an obvious timing mistake. How is that incorrect by rule?

Where did you get 3 seconds?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

I really don't understand why some posters are going through contortions about what they will do without a count in game end situations to distort their guesses into something besides a guess when there is a very simple solution, which I believe was mentioned dozens of posts ago.

When in the end game situation, if youaren't responsible for a count, simply count as a backstop to the official timer until you know the clock actually started.

Am I missing something here?

I've gotten in the habit of having at least a mental count on all throw-ins until I see the clock starting. Twice I've ended a quarter (once was the end of a game) with my own count because I was paying attention.

In the middle of the quarter, I just want the timer to start the clock in a reasonable amount of time. End of a quarter, I'll be more strict.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

I don't always go by the rulebook if a situation doesn't call for it. (Of course 99.9% of the times you should!!!) I had one of my first blarge calls earlier this season, and just called both coaches over who saw that the play could have gone either way. The game was running well and we just told them instead of working that out we will just say two( ha) inadvertent whistles and did POI. Both coaches were good with it as both wanted to avoid fouls on their key players involved in the play. Quick clear-up and things worked out well after. Yes, normally I would call it by the book here, but this was a game with good coaches and players where it could have been avoided without the blarge mess.

Are you kidding me? You chose to ignore fouls just because you had a blarge?? Why didn't you report BOTH fouls? And then get to the locker room at halftime or after the game and discuss with your partner the theories of PRIMARY AREAS and PATIENT WHISTLES?!?