Lane Violations

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

... there is a huge difference between TELLING someone to look it up and ASKING them if they have access to reference materials.

I can't disagree with you, however, in this modern digital age, many would consider this Forum to be a reference material. Do we have a responsibility to give "full" citations (the actual words) on this Forum? My answer would be no. Should we? I believe the answer to be yes, but that's only my opinion of what I would like the Forum to be (a dependable, easily accessible, reference), but I'm just a member, an esteemed member, but, nevertheless, just a member (I'm not Sy Sperling. How's that for an obscure reference?).

http://youtu.be/aHpZPaQB9KE

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Access? Yes. Everybody has access to NFHS publications. But do they purchase them? Back when I was coaching, our athletic director would purchase a rulebook, a casebook, and an illustrated rulebook, for every head coach, in every sport, every year. Then the school's athletic budget got slashed. Let's see? Rulebooks, or reconditioned football helmets?

Billy:

You use to be part of the Dark Side! I am shocked! Boy, you think you know people and then you discover this! Welcome back from the Dark Side.

MTD, Sr.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Access? Yes. Everybody has access to NFHS publications. But do they purchase them? Back when I was coaching, our athletic director would purchase a rulebook, a casebook, and an illustrated rulebook, for every head coach, in every sport, every year. Then the school's athletic budget got slashed. Let's see? Rulebooks, or reconditioned football helmets?

At least in my state, my understanding is the schools get rulebooks similar to the officials (which are sent bi-yearly). If coaches do not read them, that is on them. And if it is a budget issue to by a book that might be no more than $8 for a sport you participate in, that is sad. And that is especially the truth when many decisions about equipment and other playing issues would be affected if you do not even know what is allowed or not allowed.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

My take: If "you're" an official, then take the time to look it up yourself. You never know what else you'll find. If "you're" a fan (or a dad helping out at the youth level, etc.), then ask away -- we're glad to have more knowledgeable fans. And, of course, there can be exceptions to both of those -- if "you're" an official, it helps to explain that in the post.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If "you're" an official, then take the time to look it up yourself. You never know what else you'll find.

Why can't a twenty-first century question be "looked up" on websites such as this Forum. There is certainly value to perusing a dead tree rulebook, and casebook, and finding "gems" that one might not be looking for, but this can also be accomplished by perusing this Forum, as many of us do on a daily, or at least, weekly basis, especially during the basketball season.

[bob jenkins]

"looking it up" and "asking for the answer" aren't the same thing.

And, I didn't say he had to use a "dead tree" rulebook.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

"looking it up" and "asking for the answer" aren't the same thing.

I got a few questions wrong on my IAABO Refresher Exam. I am currently in the process of triple checking my incorrect answers. In a few cases I made a stupid error, i.e., not noting the difference between a player technical foul, and a team technical foul. I already know that I will be coming to the Forum on a few questions where I won't be able to find the answer in my rulebook, or casebook. I won't be able to find the answer because it's not in the books, I won't be able to find the answer because, well because, it's just not apparent to me where the answer is (forest through the trees), and it won't be to lack of trying. I already know all the correct answers, I just want to know why I got them wrong.

Once I narrow down my incorrect answers to the point where I don't know why I got them wrong, I will be "looking up the answers" (answers to my questions about why I got some questions wrong) by utilizing all the basketball rules experts here on the Forum. Hopefully I won't have Forum members telling me to "look it up yourself", or questioning whether I have a rulebook, or not. My plan is to post these questions later today (I know that one will be on a correctable error during an unmerited free throw, with said free throw involving a common foul).

It's the twenty-first century. There are more efficient ways of doing things now then there were a short twenty years ago. Embrace the Digital Age (If I can do this in my seventh decade on this planet, then I'm sure that others can do it as well). Knowing how to use the Forum as a resource is part (and not just the only part) of "learning to fish".

(Note: "Asking for (the) answers" one through seventy-five (Yes. No. Yes. Yes ...) on a refresher exam, even an open book refresher exam, is not part of "learning to fish". It's unethical, certainly here in my little corner of Connecticut, and probably almost everywhere else.)

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Embrace the Digital Age

What is this digital age thing you speak of? Does that have something to do with your hands feeling older than the rest of your body (perhaps due to a lack of use of Palmolive) leaving you unable to embrace small objects as easily as in your younger days?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

What is this digital age thing you speak of? Does that have something to do with your hands feeling older than the rest of your body (perhaps due to a lack of use of Palmolive) leaving you unable to embrace small objects as easily as in your younger days?

Will using Palmolive make me look younger?

[BryanV21]

While I have access to rule books, case books, etc, oftentimes I try to answer questions without looking the answer up. After all, if something happens during a game I can't just reach into my back pocket and look up the proper call/non-call.

And while my rule and case books are within a few feet of me right now, I don't always have them readily available when someone cites them. So I appreciate an answer that's more than "it's in Rule 9.yada, yada, yada."

Even though it can be annoying that answers can easily be looked up, it's not like we're all here to take part in a closed-book exam. How about helping people out, while trying to make sure you're not doing so in a condescending manner?

We're not all 30+ year officials who, outside of a rule change every once in a while, know the rule and case books inside-out.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I don't always have them readily available when someone cites them. So I appreciate an answer that's more than "it's in Rule 9.yada, yada, yada.".

My rulebook, casebook, and mechanics manual, are often a few rooms away from my computer, in my bedroom closet, in my official's bag. During the season, the books are usually in my bag, in the back seat of my car, downstairs in the garage.

I have a PDF rulebook, and casebook, on my computer hard drive, but they're from 2011-12, and are becoming dated. I think that they are actually giving off a odd, musty, smell inside my computer.

Originally Posted by BryanV21

We're not all 30+ year officials who, outside of a rule change every once in a while, know the rule and case books inside-out.

Over thirty-plus years, it's the rule changes that became more confusing. I was actually less confused back when I was a rookie official. Let's see? One free throw for a technical foul? That doesn't sound right? Double foul? I know that's it's no longer a jump ball. Arrow, or point of interruption? How much time to replace a disqualified player? Twenty seconds? Are you sure it's not thirty seconds?

Hey BryanV21: I note that you're from Columbus, Ohio. The next time that Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. decides to give us all a history lesson going back to Dr. James Naismith, Emilia Earhart, and William Howard Taft, would you please take a short drive up Route 30 to Toledo and give him a slap in the head from me.

[BryanV21]

Just to make sure... I didn't intend that post for anyone in particular.

And if you pay for gas. I'm there.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Does this mean that B1 and B2 were in the second spots?

Will that affect the subsequent administration?

We can't tell from the example if they were or weren't in the second spots. However, it does not matter. When the offensive players occupy the first spots it is a double violation. A, the offense, has violated for BEING IN the first spots. B, the defense, has violated for NOT BEING IN the first spots as required. The possession arrow determines who gets the ball.

[bd41flpk]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Access? Yes. Everybody has access to NFHS publications. But do they purchase them? Back when I was coaching, our athletic director would purchase a rulebook, a casebook, and an illustrated rulebook, for every head coach, in every sport, every year. Then the school's athletic budget got slashed. Let's see? Rulebooks, or reconditioned football helmets?

Agreed in scenario - (a) After A1 has the ball for the foul shot, the official recognizes that A2 and A3 are occupying the 1st 2 lane spots

(1) On a 1-1 or the 2nd of a 2-shot foul, this is a 'double violation' and the possession is determined by the AP arrow.

(2) On the 1st of a 2-shot foul, A1 loses the shot and then proceed to the 2nd shot and make sure that Team B (defense) occupies the (2) bottom lane spots?

Make sense?

[Adam]

Side note: I hate how a double violation with more FTs to follow leads to, essentially, no penalty on the defense.

Solution: Use the arrow. If the arrow favors the shooting team, they get the shot but lose the arrow. If the arrow favors the defense, the offense loses the shot. Either way, change the arrow as soon as the ball becomes live after that.