Lane Violations

[bd41flpk]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Half an answer to OP questions: References for this question are 9-1-3d,e,g and 9.1COMMENT.

Just a quick question. This is an innocent question -- not intended to be critical or harsh. Do you have a current rulebook and casebook? If so, I was just wondering why you'd be unable to find references relevant to this question. Is it because this exact "spin move" is not mentioned anywhere in the rulebook or casebook? Or don't you have books? And if you don't have books, why ask for the rulebook a casebook references? Just wonderin'. Trying to increase in understanding. Curious, that's all. Really.

Just a quick reply......just curious, isn't this a 'learning' board where we as officials can collaborate and share questions/answers on rules and situations. Folks who level 'judgement' on others as far as having possession of rule books and membership implications have nothing better to do....if this makes you feel better - go for it !

Now for the real answer - I appreciate others who have directed me to the correct area of the Rule book ( and I quote ) - (Rule 9. Rule 1 Art 3.g) '....No player shall enter a marked lane space OR leave a marked lane space by contacting the court outside the 36-inch by 36-inch space until the ball is released..'

This then answers the question that the 'spin move' is legal as long as the player leaves the marked lane space AFTER the ball is released !

Many Thanks for the reference !

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by bd41flpk

Folks who level 'judgement' on others as far as having possession of rule books and membership implications have nothing better to do....if this makes you feel better - go for it

Wow. I guess my well-intended disclaimers didn't work.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by bd41flpk

...I appreciate others who have directed me to the correct area of the Rule book ( and I quote ) - (Rule 9. Rule 1 Art 3.g) '....No player shall enter a marked lane space OR leave a marked lane space by contacting the court outside the 36-inch by 36-inch space until the ball is released..' This then answers the question...
Many Thanks for the reference !

BTW, I am the "others" who directed you there.
And you're more than welcome. Nice to be appreciated. That's why we're here.

[Raymond]

The so-called spin move is not addressed in the rule book. And if you want somebody to take time to research citations and rules for you don't cop a juvenile attitude because you are asked an innocuous and simple question about your own assess to the same references

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by bd41flpk

This then answers the question that the 'spin move' is legal as long as the player leaves the marked lane space AFTER the ball is released !

Someone who has been on this forum for 6 1/2 years should be able to look up a rule. The rule is listed in the rule changes so it's not difficult to find. Therefore, it does make others wonder whether you own a rule book or case book.

Just a note, it's makes no difference what kind of move he makes, he can't move until AFTER the release.

[BillyMac]

My post (below) is not in direct reference to bd41flpk's, and Freddy's (do we have a more friendly Forum member?) posts in this thread, but, instead, is more of a general post, in reference to past threads containing statements regarding whether a poster has possession of a rulebook, or not, and whether, or not, one can simply look up the answer on their own, and if not, why not (excluding answers to test questions).

Originally Posted by bd41flpk

... having possession of rule books ...

It is my understanding that this Forum is not only for basketball officials. There's no velvet rope, and bouncer. While most "members" are probably basketball officials, that will have easy access to rulebooks and casebooks, I'm pretty sure that some "members" may be coaches, players, or fans, with limited access to rulebooks and casebooks. The percentage of "guests", who only participate by reading posts, that are not officials, and who might not have access to rulebooks and casebooks, is probably a lot higher than "members".

When I posted this, there were twenty-five "guests" on the Forum, and only two "members". While we have no responsibility to "guests", and nonofficial "members", to provide accurate rule interpretations that most, but not all, can simply look up, doesn't it help the game of basketball if these "guests", and nonofficial "members", have easy access to accurate rule interpretations, and citations, from experts (aren't basketball officials supposed to be the guardians of the game?), like ourselves.

Yes, there is a certain amount of truth to the old adage about "teaching a man to fish". But this is now the twenty-first century, and many now consider the internet, and forums like this, to be a reference, even to those (officials) with access to rulebooks and casebooks, just as all of us old timers once considered only a rulebook and casebook, made out of dead trees, to be a reference just a few short years ago.

Telling a Forum member, who doesn't own a rulebook and casebook, or a non-Forum-member, who may not be a basketball official, who doesn't own a rulebook or casebook, but who may be interested in a rule interpretation, to "look it up" may be helpful only to those who actually own a rulebook and casebook, and would be of limited value to those who don't, especially to those nonmembers "lurking" quietly in the background, who are not "posters". Check the numbers at the bottom of the page. We have a lot of these "lurkers". Telling such a "lurker" that the answer can be found in citation 4-6, and 4.6, is of absolutely no help to many (but not all) "lurkers".

Now can somebody please help me down from this soapbox? It's kind of scary up here, and I don't want to get hurt before the season begins. C'mon Freddy? Give a brother official a hand. You seem friendly enough.

[Raymond]

Billy, I would think coaches have access to rule books.

And there is a huge difference between TELLING someone to look it up and ASKING them if they have access to reference materials.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Billy, I would think coaches have access to rule books.

Access? Yes. Everybody has access to NFHS publications. But do they purchase them? Back when I was coaching, our athletic director would purchase a rulebook, a casebook, and an illustrated rulebook, for every head coach, in every sport, every year. Then the school's athletic budget got slashed. Let's see? Rulebooks, or reconditioned football helmets?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Access? Yes. Everybody has access to NFHS publications. But do they purchase them? Back when I was coaching, our athletic director would purchase a rulebook, a casebook, and an illustrated rulebook, for every head coach, in every sport, every year. Then the school's athletic budget got slashed. Let's see? Rulebooks, or reconditioned football helmets?

Billy:

You use to be part of the Dark Side! I am shocked! Boy, you think you know people and then you discover this! Welcome back from the Dark Side.

MTD, Sr.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Access? Yes. Everybody has access to NFHS publications. But do they purchase them? Back when I was coaching, our athletic director would purchase a rulebook, a casebook, and an illustrated rulebook, for every head coach, in every sport, every year. Then the school's athletic budget got slashed. Let's see? Rulebooks, or reconditioned football helmets?

At least in my state, my understanding is the schools get rulebooks similar to the officials (which are sent bi-yearly). If coaches do not read them, that is on them. And if it is a budget issue to by a book that might be no more than $8 for a sport you participate in, that is sad. And that is especially the truth when many decisions about equipment and other playing issues would be affected if you do not even know what is allowed or not allowed.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

My take: If "you're" an official, then take the time to look it up yourself. You never know what else you'll find. If "you're" a fan (or a dad helping out at the youth level, etc.), then ask away -- we're glad to have more knowledgeable fans. And, of course, there can be exceptions to both of those -- if "you're" an official, it helps to explain that in the post.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If "you're" an official, then take the time to look it up yourself. You never know what else you'll find.

Why can't a twenty-first century question be "looked up" on websites such as this Forum. There is certainly value to perusing a dead tree rulebook, and casebook, and finding "gems" that one might not be looking for, but this can also be accomplished by perusing this Forum, as many of us do on a daily, or at least, weekly basis, especially during the basketball season.

[bd41flpk]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Access? Yes. Everybody has access to NFHS publications. But do they purchase them? Back when I was coaching, our athletic director would purchase a rulebook, a casebook, and an illustrated rulebook, for every head coach, in every sport, every year. Then the school's athletic budget got slashed. Let's see? Rulebooks, or reconditioned football helmets?

Agreed in scenario - (a) After A1 has the ball for the foul shot, the official recognizes that A2 and A3 are occupying the 1st 2 lane spots

(1) On a 1-1 or the 2nd of a 2-shot foul, this is a 'double violation' and the possession is determined by the AP arrow.

(2) On the 1st of a 2-shot foul, A1 loses the shot and then proceed to the 2nd shot and make sure that Team B (defense) occupies the (2) bottom lane spots?

Make sense?

[Adam]

Side note: I hate how a double violation with more FTs to follow leads to, essentially, no penalty on the defense.

Solution: Use the arrow. If the arrow favors the shooting team, they get the shot but lose the arrow. If the arrow favors the defense, the offense loses the shot. Either way, change the arrow as soon as the ball becomes live after that.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Adam

Side note: I hate how a double violation with more FTs to follow leads to, essentially, no penalty on the defense.

Solution: Use the arrow. If the arrow favors the shooting team, they get the shot but lose the arrow. If the arrow favors the defense, the offense loses the shot. Either way, change the arrow as soon as the ball becomes live after that.

Solution: Violations that come as a result of players lining up in the wrong spots is ignored if more free throws are to follow.