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Old Fri Oct 31, 2014, 04:54pm
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Lane Violations

(#1) Scenario: A1 is fouled by B1 as a common foul and Team A is in the 1-1 bonus. (a) After A1 has the ball for the foul shot, the official recognizes that A2 and A3 are occupying the 1st 2 lane spots and (b) After A1 has successfully made his 1st free throw the official recognizes that A2 and A3 are occupying the 1st 2 lane spots. Are both of these scenarios violations? I say 'yes' and A1 loses the 1-1 opportunity.

(#2) Now that the rule change has been made for NFHS to coincide w/the NCAA - may leave the spot on the 'release', may a defender in the Lane spots # 2 perform a 'spin move' once the ball is released? I believe not, since I recall that a rule was made that these defenders must come 'straight in' and not be allowed to go around the # 1 spots.

Rule/Case Book references would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
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Old Fri Oct 31, 2014, 06:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bd41flpk View Post
(#1) Scenario: A1 is fouled by B1 as a common foul and Team A is in the 1-1 bonus. (a) After A1 has the ball for the foul shot, the official recognizes that A2 and A3 are occupying the 1st 2 lane spots and (b) After A1 has successfully made his 1st free throw the official recognizes that A2 and A3 are occupying the 1st 2 lane spots. Are both of these scenarios violations? I say 'yes' and A1 loses the 1-1 opportunity.

(#2) Now that the rule change has been made for NFHS to coincide w/the NCAA - may leave the spot on the 'release', may a defender in the Lane spots # 2 perform a 'spin move' once the ball is released? I believe not, since I recall that a rule was made that these defenders must come 'straight in' and not be allowed to go around the # 1 spots.

Rule/Case Book references would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
#1a, yes, that is a violation.
#1b, Live ball entered the basket....shot counts...ball dead....official observes A2 and A3 in the wrong spot(s)....too late.\

#2, no such rule. They can go any direction they want.
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Old Sat Nov 01, 2014, 03:00am
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If You Recall It, It Must Be Correct

Quote:
Originally Posted by bd41flpk View Post
I recall that a rule was made that these defenders must come 'straight in' and not be allowed to go around the # 1 spots...
Didn't they call that a violation in "Hoosiers"?
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Old Sat Nov 01, 2014, 03:12am
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Didn't they call that a violation in "Hoosiers"?
Well, I have heard partners and even people hear make such a suggestion.
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Old Sat Nov 01, 2014, 05:22am
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Originally Posted by bd41flpk View Post
...may a defender in the Lane spots # 2 perform a 'spin move' once the ball is released?...Rule/Case Book references would be appreciated.
Half an answer to OP questions: References for this question are 9-1-3d,e,g and 9.1COMMENT.

Just a quick question. This is an innocent question -- not intended to be critical or harsh. Do you have a current rulebook and casebook? If so, I was just wondering why you'd be unable to find references relevant to this question. Is it because this exact "spin move" is not mentioned anywhere in the rulebook or casebook? Or don't you have books? And if you don't have books, why ask for the rulebook a casebook references? Just wonderin'. Trying to increase in understanding. Curious, that's all. Really.
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Old Sat Nov 01, 2014, 06:21am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bd41flpk View Post
(#1) Scenario: A1 is fouled by B1 as a common foul and Team A is in the 1-1 bonus. (a) After A1 has the ball for the foul shot, the official recognizes that A2 and A3 are occupying the 1st 2 lane spots and
Does this mean that B1 and B2 were in the second spots?

Will that affect the subsequent administration?
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Old Sat Nov 01, 2014, 10:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
Half an answer to OP questions: References for this question are 9-1-3d,e,g and 9.1COMMENT.

Just a quick question. This is an innocent question -- not intended to be critical or harsh. Do you have a current rulebook and casebook? If so, I was just wondering why you'd be unable to find references relevant to this question. Is it because this exact "spin move" is not mentioned anywhere in the rulebook or casebook? Or don't you have books? And if you don't have books, why ask for the rulebook a casebook references? Just wonderin'. Trying to increase in understanding. Curious, that's all. Really.
Just a quick reply......just curious, isn't this a 'learning' board where we as officials can collaborate and share questions/answers on rules and situations. Folks who level 'judgement' on others as far as having possession of rule books and membership implications have nothing better to do....if this makes you feel better - go for it !

Now for the real answer - I appreciate others who have directed me to the correct area of the Rule book ( and I quote ) - (Rule 9. Rule 1 Art 3.g) '....No player shall enter a marked lane space OR leave a marked lane space by contacting the court outside the 36-inch by 36-inch space until the ball is released..'

This then answers the question that the 'spin move' is legal as long as the player leaves the marked lane space AFTER the ball is released !

Many Thanks for the reference !
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Old Sat Nov 01, 2014, 10:21am
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Originally Posted by bd41flpk View Post
Folks who level 'judgement' on others as far as having possession of rule books and membership implications have nothing better to do....if this makes you feel better - go for it
Wow. I guess my well-intended disclaimers didn't work.
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Old Sat Nov 01, 2014, 10:28am
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Originally Posted by bd41flpk View Post
...I appreciate others who have directed me to the correct area of the Rule book ( and I quote ) - (Rule 9. Rule 1 Art 3.g) '....No player shall enter a marked lane space OR leave a marked lane space by contacting the court outside the 36-inch by 36-inch space until the ball is released..' This then answers the question...
Many Thanks for the reference !
BTW, I am the "others" who directed you there.
And you're more than welcome. Nice to be appreciated. That's why we're here.
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Old Sat Nov 01, 2014, 10:48am
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The so-called spin move is not addressed in the rule book. And if you want somebody to take time to research citations and rules for you don't cop a juvenile attitude because you are asked an innocuous and simple question about your own assess to the same references
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Old Sat Nov 01, 2014, 11:14am
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Originally Posted by bd41flpk View Post
This then answers the question that the 'spin move' is legal as long as the player leaves the marked lane space AFTER the ball is released !
Someone who has been on this forum for 6 1/2 years should be able to look up a rule. The rule is listed in the rule changes so it's not difficult to find. Therefore, it does make others wonder whether you own a rule book or case book.

Just a note, it's makes no difference what kind of move he makes, he can't move until AFTER the release.
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Old Sat Nov 01, 2014, 11:40am
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Originally Posted by bd41flpk View Post
...a 'spin move' once the ball is released...
NOTE: Summer camps featured more of this tactic than I'd ever seen before. It seems to be perceived that there is more time available to gain an advantage from not only the "spin move" around the lower block player, but also the "step back and try to cut around move." Neither, by the way, seemed to be overly effective for that second space player anyway. Just my take on it. Others may report differently.
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Old Sat Nov 01, 2014, 12:20pm
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The Times They Are A-Changin' (Bob Dylan, 1964) ...

My post (below) is not in direct reference to bd41flpk's, and Freddy's (do we have a more friendly Forum member?) posts in this thread, but, instead, is more of a general post, in reference to past threads containing statements regarding whether a poster has possession of a rulebook, or not, and whether, or not, one can simply look up the answer on their own, and if not, why not (excluding answers to test questions).

Quote:
Originally Posted by bd41flpk View Post
... having possession of rule books ...
It is my understanding that this Forum is not only for basketball officials. There's no velvet rope, and bouncer. While most "members" are probably basketball officials, that will have easy access to rulebooks and casebooks, I'm pretty sure that some "members" may be coaches, players, or fans, with limited access to rulebooks and casebooks. The percentage of "guests", who only participate by reading posts, that are not officials, and who might not have access to rulebooks and casebooks, is probably a lot higher than "members".

When I posted this, there were twenty-five "guests" on the Forum, and only two "members". While we have no responsibility to "guests", and nonofficial "members", to provide accurate rule interpretations that most, but not all, can simply look up, doesn't it help the game of basketball if these "guests", and nonofficial "members", have easy access to accurate rule interpretations, and citations, from experts (aren't basketball officials supposed to be the guardians of the game?), like ourselves.

Yes, there is a certain amount of truth to the old adage about "teaching a man to fish". But this is now the twenty-first century, and many now consider the internet, and forums like this, to be a reference, even to those (officials) with access to rulebooks and casebooks, just as all of us old timers once considered only a rulebook and casebook, made out of dead trees, to be a reference just a few short years ago.

Telling a Forum member, who doesn't own a rulebook and casebook, or a non-Forum-member, who may not be a basketball official, who doesn't own a rulebook or casebook, but who may be interested in a rule interpretation, to "look it up" may be helpful only to those who actually own a rulebook and casebook, and would be of limited value to those who don't, especially to those nonmembers "lurking" quietly in the background, who are not "posters". Check the numbers at the bottom of the page. We have a lot of these "lurkers". Telling such a "lurker" that the answer can be found in citation 4-6, and 4.6, is of absolutely no help to many (but not all) "lurkers".

Now can somebody please help me down from this soapbox? It's kind of scary up here, and I don't want to get hurt before the season begins. C'mon Freddy? Give a brother official a hand. You seem friendly enough.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Nov 01, 2014 at 05:44pm.
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Old Sat Nov 01, 2014, 12:58pm
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Billy, I would think coaches have access to rule books.

And there is a huge difference between TELLING someone to look it up and ASKING them if they have access to reference materials.
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Last edited by Raymond; Sat Nov 01, 2014 at 01:01pm.
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Old Sat Nov 01, 2014, 01:04pm
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Cheap Coaches ...

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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
Billy, I would think coaches have access to rule books.
Access? Yes. Everybody has access to NFHS publications. But do they purchase them? Back when I was coaching, our athletic director would purchase a rulebook, a casebook, and an illustrated rulebook, for every head coach, in every sport, every year. Then the school's athletic budget got slashed. Let's see? Rulebooks, or reconditioned football helmets?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Nov 01, 2014 at 01:35pm.
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