The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #76 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 07, 2014, 09:14pm
NFHS Official
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,734
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
I'm not gonna apologize to the coach for failing to do something which is ultimately his responsibility.
I'm not going to start play with only 4 guys on the floor. Which is my responsibility.
Reply With Quote
  #77 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 07, 2014, 09:59pm
We don't rent pigs
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by OKREF View Post
I'm not going to start play with only 4 guys on the floor. Which is my responsibility.
It is dangerous to say flatly what you're not going to do. The officials in the OP didn't meant to do it either. But, at the end of the day, it is the team which is penalized, not the officials. That is what I mean when I say it is ultimately his responsibility.
__________________
I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum.
It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow.


Lonesome Dove
Reply With Quote
  #78 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 08, 2014, 02:38am
This IS My Social Life
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at L, T, or C
Posts: 2,379
Quote:
Originally Posted by OKREF View Post
"Sorry coach, my partner and I failed to count your players after the timeout, and allowed the game to continue, and even though 40 seconds has expired, and your player is legally entering the game now, I'm going to have to give you a T".

Not a conversation I would like to have.
The alternative conversation is: "Sorry coach, my partner and I failed to count your opponent's players after a timeout and allowed the game to continue. And even though you have quoted to me the rule that a team technical is merited, I'm not going to enforce that rule because . . ."

Choose your conversation.

One results from emotion. The other derives from a rule. When given the unsavory choice between those two, what would be the best to choose? You're gonna have a coach mad either way. Only thing is, only one of them didn't make sure he had five players on the court.
__________________
Making Every Effort to Be in the Right Place at the Right Time, Looking at the Right Thing to Make the Right Call
Reply With Quote
  #79 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 08, 2014, 06:19am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Still Confused In Connecticut ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
... even though you have quoted to me the rule that a team technical is merited, I'm not going to enforce that rule because . . ." ... derives from a rule.
Bingo. Know the rules.

Now that we've, hopefully, finally, moved away from the player/bench personnel debate, I am still confused about the whether the technical should be charged when the officials realize that there are only four players on the floor, or when the fifth player enters from the bench.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #80 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 08, 2014, 07:05am
NFHS Official
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,734
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Bingo. Know the rules.

Now that we've, hopefully, finally, moved away from the player/bench personnel debate, I am still confused about the whether the technical should be charged when the officials realize that there are only four players on the floor, or when the fifth player enters from the bench.
I'm doing when they enter, as that's how I interpret the case play.
Reply With Quote
  #81 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 08, 2014, 07:49am
This IS My Social Life
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at L, T, or C
Posts: 2,379
Quote:
Originally Posted by OKREF View Post
I'm doing when they enter, as that's how I interpret the case play.
If that's when it is noticed, then that's when it must be called, using the specific caseplay provided in 10.1.9.

If it is noticed prior to that, the official who calls it then has support of the clear reading of the rule in 10-1-9.

Choose your poison.

On to another valuable sitch..........
__________________
Making Every Effort to Be in the Right Place at the Right Time, Looking at the Right Thing to Make the Right Call
Reply With Quote
  #82 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 08, 2014, 08:03am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Virginia
Posts: 546
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
If that's when it is noticed, then that's when it must be called, using the specific caseplay provided in 10.1.9.

If it is noticed prior to that, the official who calls it then has support of the clear reading of the rule in 10-1-9.

Choose your poison.

On to another valuable sitch..........
Late to the discussion, but if only 4 return, it is possible (and legal) in theory that the team only has 4 players available (other players could be injured or sick) and the officials failed to ask for an explaination as to why only 4 were playing prior to resuming play.

Therefore, I'm not calling a T unless the 5th player re-enters the court during the live ball. Until that point, all (four) players have returned at approximately the same time in accordance with 10-1-9
Reply With Quote
  #83 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 08, 2014, 08:43am
This IS My Social Life
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at L, T, or C
Posts: 2,379
Quote:
Originally Posted by HokiePaul View Post
Late to the discussion, but if only 4 return, it is possible (and legal) in theory that the team only has 4 players available (other players could be injured or sick) and the officials failed to ask for an explaination as to why only 4 were playing prior to resuming play.

Therefore, I'm not calling a T unless the 5th player re-enters the court during the live ball. Until that point, all (four) players have returned at approximately the same time in accordance with 10-1-9
I quit.
__________________
Making Every Effort to Be in the Right Place at the Right Time, Looking at the Right Thing to Make the Right Call
Reply With Quote
  #84 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 08, 2014, 09:48am
This IS My Social Life
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at L, T, or C
Posts: 2,379
Es tut mir leid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
I quit.
I am sorry. That response betrayed a bad attitude that overcame me, the kind of snippy reply I wouldn't find pleasant if others reacted that way.
In the spirit of the enabling fellowship of officiating, let me invite the posting person who, joining admittedly late, to review all the discussion and responses from the beginning of the thread. Then a well-rounded personal interpretation can be formulated based on whatever clarity is gleaned from that review.
__________________
Making Every Effort to Be in the Right Place at the Right Time, Looking at the Right Thing to Make the Right Call
Reply With Quote
  #85 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 08, 2014, 09:58am
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 14,839
How many people here have ever called a T for a team only having 4 players on the court?
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #86 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 08, 2014, 10:25am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
I'm with you on this. I'm not calling it unless the 5th player comes running out during play.
Agree.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
  #87 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 08, 2014, 10:28am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
Quote of a Previous Quote by OKREF:
Let's take this one more step. 10-1 says it's penalized when the fifth player returns. What if they play with four and there is a dead ball. B5 legally subs in. Technical foul? I would think no.

(Follow Up Question by the Author):


Yes. Thoughts:
#1, 10-1 doesn't say that it's penalized when the fifth player returns. It says, "Penalized when they (referring to Arts. 3,4,5,8,9,10) occur." When what occurs? "When a team fails to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission." That means that your conclusion, "Technical foul? I would think no" is based on emotion perhaps, but not based on rule 10-1-9 and it's associated prescribed penalty.
Until you have the 2nd player return you haven't had the occurrence that needs to be penalized....players returning at different times. Up to that point, all players that returned did so at the same time.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
  #88 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 08, 2014, 10:51am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Virginia
Posts: 546
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
I am sorry. That response betrayed a bad attitude that overcame me, the kind of snippy reply I wouldn't find pleasant if others reacted that way.
In the spirit of the enabling fellowship of officiating, let me invite the posting person who, joining admittedly late, to review all the discussion and responses from the beginning of the thread. Then a well-rounded personal interpretation can be formulated based on whatever clarity is gleaned from that review.
Sorry if I restated something already mentioned. I was trying not to repeat everything that was already discussed (like the officials should not resume play with 4 in the first place -- obviously).

I agree with the thinking (based on the case play cited) which is that the technical foul should occur immediately when the 5th player enters the court after the others -- not automatically if the officials realize only 4 are playing. Until the 5th player enters the court (not at the same time as the others) I do not see how 10-1-9 has been violated.

I was making the point that it is also not clear to me that 3.1 has been violated because the officials can not say for sure that the team does have five players available. So one other reason (which I didn't think had been mentioned) as to why I would not stop play and call a technical is because I can think of at least one scenario (although unusual) where it would be legal to play with 4 players -- specifically a situation where the 5th player is the only player available and he/she becomes injured/ill during the timeout.

What am I missing?

Last edited by HokiePaul; Mon Sep 08, 2014 at 12:14pm.
Reply With Quote
  #89 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 08, 2014, 12:35pm
wife loves the goatee...
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Beach
Posts: 255
Having read all six pages to this point ... The consensus is that the player who enters the court after the ball is live will receive an immediate tech? (Irrelevant whether or not he gains any advantage).
Reply With Quote
  #90 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 08, 2014, 12:38pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRJ1960 View Post
Having read all six pages to this point ... The consensus is that the player who enters the court after the ball is live will receive an immediate tech? (Irrelevant whether or not he gains any advantage).
Aside from the number of pages, and who receives the T, yes. I see 3 pages (forum options control how many posts you see on a page) and it is a team T, not a player T.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
legal entry, substitution

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Re-entry jkohls Basketball 7 Sun Mar 22, 2009 08:56pm
DH Re-entry upscout2000 Baseball 1 Sun Apr 08, 2007 02:33pm
DH Re-entry JL87 Baseball 8 Wed Mar 19, 2003 12:30pm
DH Re-entry harmbu Baseball 3 Tue Apr 30, 2002 02:34pm
DH re-entry PAblue87 Baseball 7 Fri Apr 27, 2001 11:21pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:51pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1