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  #46 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 01, 2018, 04:23pm
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May Not Roll Over ...

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control.
A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without
violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once
A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her
back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling
unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises
and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Rolling over is a player is turning from the stomach to the back, or from laying on their right side to laying on the left side.....something like a full 180 degree change of orientation.
Does it have to be 180 degrees? How about a player holding the ball while flat on his back who rolls ninety degrees to his left (ball moves from top of player's stomach to almost to the floor) to prevent a steal by an opponent on his right (the ball moves along with the rolling motion of the player's body, both move ninety degrees)?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue May 01, 2018 at 04:25pm.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 02, 2018, 05:03am
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I wish they used the NBA rule where it's legal to get up with the ball. Everyone appreciates hustle. It's legal to dive on the floor for a loose ball, reward the player by letting him or her stand.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 02, 2018, 07:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control.
A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without
violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once
A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her
back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling
unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises
and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)




Does it have to be 180 degrees? How about a player holding the ball while flat on his back who rolls ninety degrees to his left (ball moves from top of player's stomach to almost to the floor) to prevent a steal by an opponent on his right (the ball moves along with the rolling motion of the player's body, both move ninety degrees)?
I think the case comes close to *my* answer on this. Rolling from back to side is NOT rolling over.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 02, 2018, 07:44am
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I have always found it odd that a player from their back to sit up to get a range of mobility to pass, see imminent contact/player pressure coming, and generally be in a more stable and comfortable position, yet the player on the floor on their stomach can never really get a similar position without travelling.

It would seem to me that most hustle plays would have people diving face and chest first toward the ball and floor, rather than back first Back first tends to be a result of a broken play where someone ends up off balance or already on the floor and flailing after a ball.

Not really a reward or punishment, but if I clumsily fall down on my back side and have to fall back to keep control of the ball (because I'm also clumsy) I can sit up. If I put my body on the line for a loose ball and floor burn my knees, hips and chest to get possesion of a ball I now get to lay perfectly still in a nearly impossible position to do much from.

My biggest concerns with these plays is player safety. When a player is sitting up almost no one dives on them or at the ball. When a player is prone on their belly there is almost always someone diving in or on second to try to tie the ball up. (IME)


*As officials I think its important that if contact happens to a player laying on the floor or diving at the ball I think its important that we get a foul call. Not just call for the tie up to reward the hustle on both sides.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 02, 2018, 09:48am
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So I believe it was asked here but I don't think I saw a definitive answer.

If A1 dives for a ball on the ground and secures the ball and his momentum causes him to roll over before he comes to a stop. Is this a travel because he has rolled over with player control of the ball? Or is this legal as he is allowed to come to rest from the dive?
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 02, 2018, 10:18am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdoebler View Post
So I believe it was asked here but I don't think I saw a definitive answer.

If A1 dives for a ball on the ground and secures the ball and his momentum causes him to roll over before he comes to a stop. Is this a travel because he has rolled over with player control of the ball? Or is this legal as he is allowed to come to rest from the dive?
99% certain there's a case or an interp directly on point.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 02, 2018, 10:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
99% certain there's a case or an interp directly on point.
Know the approximate year? Searched 17-18 cases 4.44 but didn't find anything directly.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 03, 2018, 12:53am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdoebler View Post
So I believe it was asked here but I don't think I saw a definitive answer.

If A1 dives for a ball on the ground and secures the ball and his momentum causes him to roll over before he comes to a stop. Is this a travel because he has rolled over with player control of the ball? Or is this legal as he is allowed to come to rest from the dive?
The current case play lays out the principle that any motion as part of the dive, whether it be sliding or rolling is permitted. The case says that once a player is "no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over." 4.44.5B

That, to me, says that they can roll over before the momentum stops.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 03, 2018, 09:43am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
The current case play lays out the principle that any motion as part of the dive, whether it be sliding or rolling is permitted. The case says that once a player is "no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over." 4.44.5B

That, to me, says that they can roll over before the momentum stops.
Makes sense thanks. Here is the reference for anyone else interested:

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides
after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back
or stomach. What can A1 do without violating? RULING: A1
may pass, shoot, start a dribble or request a time-out. Once A1
has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over.
If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any
attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless A1 is dribbling. It
is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and
is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)
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