Traveling refresher

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

I agree on the issue of the player on his back going to his knees. That's a travel.

A player on his stomach going to his knees, however, has not done anything prohibited by rule, IMO. I don't see it as an attempt to stand.

Not even an attempt to "get up"? What then is the reason for the statement (in either the case book or rule book, I don't remember where) about a player who is on their back being allowed to sit with no mention of other upward motions. Seems like they are allowing for that one action to be legal but not anything else.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not even an attempt to "get up"? What then is the reason for the statement (in either the case book or rule book, I don't remember where) about a player who is on their back being allowed to sit with no mention of other upward motions. Seems like they are allowing for that one action to be legal but not anything else.

I see it differently, as what is not forbidden is allowed. I don't see going to the knee from the stomach as an "attempt to get up."

I could be wrong, but I see "get up" and "stand" here as the same thing. So, standing is illegal, and attempting to stand is illegal. Rolling over is illegal. Sliding after the inertia ceases is illegal.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Adam

I see it differently, as what is not forbidden is allowed. I don't see going to the knee from the stomach as an "attempt to get up."

I could be wrong, but I see "get up" and "stand" here as the same thing. So, standing is illegal, and attempting to stand is illegal. Rolling over is illegal. Sliding after the inertia ceases is illegal.

Depends on how you want to look at it. Player is not allowed to make any "attempt to get up." If you are on your back, the first step is to sit up. This is specifically allowed. If you are on your stomach, you rise up to your knees. This is not mentioned as being legal, so it falls under the blanket of being illegal.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Depends on how you want to look at it. Player is not allowed to make any "attempt to get up." If you are on your back, the first step is to sit up. This is specifically allowed. If you are on your stomach, you rise up to your knees. This is not mentioned as being legal, so it falls under the blanket of being illegal.

It really depends on how you define "attempt to get up." I see it as equal to "attempt to stand," and in that light can't see how it applies to going from the stomach to the knee. Otherwise a player who controls the ball while on their stomach is restricted to requested a timeout.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Adam

It really depends on how you define "attempt to get up." I see it as equal to "attempt to stand," and in that light can't see how it applies to going from the stomach to the knee. Otherwise a player who controls the ball while on their stomach is restricted to requested a timeout.

You can pass the ball, sorta, from your stomach.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

You can pass the ball, sorta, from your stomach.

It can squirt out, or you allow a teammate to grab it. It won't be much of a pass, though.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Adam

It can squirt out, or you allow a teammate to grab it. It won't be much of a pass, though.

Personally, I would allow the player to push up from the floor with one hand while passing the ball with the other. I would not allow him to rise straight up on his knees and then look for a place to pass. jmo

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Adam

It really depends on how you define "attempt to get up." I see it as equal to "attempt to stand," and in that light can't see how it applies to going from the stomach to the knee. Otherwise a player who controls the ball while on their stomach is restricted to requested a timeout.

I don't have it handy, but is the rule book different from the case book:

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control.
A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without
violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once
A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her
back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling
unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises
and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)


Or, does the different wording matter?

For me, I think I need to see a foot flat (approximately) on the floor to view this as an attempt to (insert phrase here)

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I don't have it handy, but is the rule book different from the case book:

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control.
A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without
violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once
A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her
back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling
unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises
and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)


Or, does the different wording matter?

For me, I think I need to see a foot flat (approximately) on the floor to view this as an attempt to (insert phrase here)

I think the text I've highlighted in blue is listing what is allowed since the question being as is what can A1 do. The red text that you highlighted is saying that anything else (not in the list of what is allowed) IS defined as an attempt to get up, even if it isn't complete or successful, and should be a violation.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I don't have it handy, but is the rule book different from the case book:

Yes: "A player holding the ball after gaining control while on the floor.........may not attempt to get up or stand."

Is there a difference between "getting up" and "getting to the feet"?

Also, the rule book doesn't mention that the player can't roll over.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The rule book doesn't mention that the player can't roll over.

You're correct. The rulebook doesn't say that a player can't roll over, but the casebook does say that a player can't roll over.

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control.
A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without
violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once
A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over.

I get what you're saying, but let's not confuse the issue for rookies, and for those that just joined the discussion.

[BigT]

Situation

A player is on their butt with the ball. They are on their right hip and here comes a defender to take the ball. They roll to their left hip lifting their right hip off the ground and pass to their point guard.

Was this attempt to get up... I dont think so.

Did this give them advantage? I think so?

Is their right butt/hip considered a pivot like foot and changing that pivot to the left butt/hip considered changing pivots?

I wish the rule book made this clearer because half the referees I see call nothing and half call a travel.

My friend says roll over means rolling as 180 degree barrel roll. I see this as more advantage partially rolling away from a defender who comes to tie up the ball.

I want the opinions here with any reasoning why that I can use on my partners/coaches to make me a better referee. I see this play happen I want to be more confident inside and out when I make my decision.

Thanks in advance.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

... a player who controls the ball while on their stomach is restricted to requested a timeout.

Pass? Shoot? Start a dribble?