Lane Violation and Clock issue

Originally Posted by ODog

The lesson here is ALWAYS count (especially in these situations).

Even though you will not be counting 10 seconds once the ball is controlled in the backcourt, since it is an end-of-period scenario, a simple count will nonetheless come in handy when this inevitably comes up.

The only reason I know is because it's happened to me. Won't get burned like that again.

Huddle up with partner before the final play (if a timeout precedes it) and just let your VISIBLE count do the work. That way, in addition to having definite knowledge, you won't have to stop the game at its most critical juncture and penalize a team for timekeeper incompetence.

So you will do a visible count in low-clock situations when none is required by rule?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by AremRed

So you will do a visible count in low-clock situations when none is required by rule?

Are you saying there is something wrong with this? I try to have a count in this situation, but it may not be visible. If it is visible it would obviously be easier to sell. As opposed to:

"Aw, he's just making stuff up now!"

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by AremRed

So you will do a visible count in low-clock situations when none is required by rule?

Absolutely! If there is a clock error which I correct, there will be clear video evidence of my count.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by AremRed

So you will do a visible count in low-clock situations when none is required by rule?

What rule states that you don't have a visible count? Citation please.

NFHS 2-7-9: The officials shall conduct the game in accordance with the rules. This includes: Silently and visibly counting seconds to administer the throw-in (7-6), free-throw (8-4; 9-1-3a), backcourt (9-8) and closely-guarded (9-10) rules.

Now if you meant to say mechanics, under which high school mechanics set does it state not to have a visible count when the clock is under ten seconds? Citation please.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Absolutely! If there is a clock error which I correct, there will be clear video evidence of my count.

Agree. I count every time.

[Rob1968]

A canp evaluator, several years ago, stated that a backcourt count with fewer than 10 seconds remaining, indicated a lack of game/time awareness. So, since then, in HS games, I use a non-visible count in such situations.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Are you saying there is something wrong with this?

No.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

What rule states that you don't have a visible count? Citation please.

Never said it was not allowed, just that it was not required.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Never said it was not allowed, just that it was not required.

No, you said a little more than that. You said that is wasn't "required by rule". What rule doesn't require a visible count in low clock situations? Citation please.

NFHS 2-7-9: The officials shall conduct the game in accordance with the rules. This includes: Silently and visibly counting seconds to administer the throw-in, free-throw, backcourt, and closely-guarded rules.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

No, you said a little more than that. You said that is wasn't "required by rule". What rule doesn't require a visible count in low clock situations? Citation please.

NFHS 2-7-9: The officials shall conduct the game in accordance with the rules. This includes: Silently and visibly counting seconds to administer the throw-in, free-throw, backcourt, and closely-guarded rules.

No, you are reading in to what I wrote.

There is no rule that requires a count in low-clock situations where there is no count for another reason (backcourt count, closely guarded count, etc.). In other words, no count is required by rule.

I never said that a silent or visible count is not allowed in low-clock situations, that is what you assumed. No count required by rule ≠ rule requires no count.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

No, you said a little more than that. You said that is wasn't "required by rule". What rule doesn't require a visible count in low clock situations? Citation please.

NFHS 2-7-9: The officials shall conduct the game in accordance with the rules. This includes: Silently and visibly counting seconds to administer the throw-in, free-throw, backcourt, and closely-guarded rules.

He's right. It's not required by rule. You won't find a rule anywhere that "doesn't require" anything. What you will find is a rule that lays out the times a visual count is required (a series of rules, actually), and you won't find the OP in that list. Thus, it's not required by rule.

Now I realize you're from the land of "Nothing's Really Optional," but you know the difference, right?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

What you will find is a rule that lays out the times a visual count is required (a series of rules, actually), and you won't find the OP in that list.

So, since there can't be a backcourt violation with nine seconds left, or a five second closely guarded violation with four seconds left, we don't count?

Yeah. OK.

It's just that I've never, in thirty-three years, heard about a rule, or mechanic, that recommends us to not visibly, and silently, count under these situations.

Nine seconds left. Throwin in the backcourt. Unbeknown to the officials, the clock operator doesn't start the clock (mistake number one) for five seconds, which is not noticed by the inattentive officials (mistake number 2), so the trail, not visibly, and silently counting, as AremRed claims is the correct rule, or mechanic, allows the player to dribble the ball for up to fourteen seconds in the backcourt without a violation (mistake number three)?

As Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.'s old friend, Billy Shakespeare, once said, "Something is rotten in the state of Denmark".

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

He's right. It's not required by rule. You won't find a rule anywhere that "doesn't require" anything. What you will find is a rule that lays out the times a visual count is required (a series of rules, actually), and you won't find the OP in that list. Thus, it's not required by rule.

Actually, I don't think you'll find such a "rule" at all. There are no visible counts that are required by the rules. The rules only require a count, without mention of visibility. Our mechanics (guidelines) tell us to visibly count, but it isn't a rule. All of the rule-based counts for which we use a visible count are still valid even if not visible. A 10 second violation is still a 10 second violation whether the officials was visibly counting or not. The fact that we make it visible is largely to inform someone that is observing that we really are counting...and to aid us in pacing the count.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by AremRed

So you will do a visible count in low-clock situations when none is required by rule?

Nope. I will count, but it will not be visible unless it is one of the required visible counts.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by AremRed

So you will do a visible count in low-clock situations when none is required by rule?

I do. If I'm going to have to end the quarter or adjust the clock in this situation (I've done both), I'd rather have video evidence that supports my decision.