Lane Violation and Clock issue

[uneek1]

I had this happen in two games I did over the weekend.

1. As the lead official I administered a foul shot to Team A I did not catch that team A had a player in the space near the shooter which they can not have. I give the ball to the Shooter and he then tells the player to leave the lane for def purposes. The shooter makes it and I call a violation. The Coach for team A feels the basket should count since player A shouldn't have been there in the first place. My explanation was that we granted him that spot so when we put the ball in play he is in legal position and therefore could secure a rebound as well without penalty. I called violation because he moved after the shooter had the ball regardless of his position in the lane is this correct?

2. We had a situation where there was 6 seconds left in a game. Team A inbounds from their defensive end and start up court we notice when they get to around mid court the clock did not start on inbound but did start before we caught it. We put the ball in play at point of interruption. Was that correct or should we have started at the original point prior to the clock error?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[Adam]

1. Once the shooter has the ball with A2 in the defensive spot, it's a simultaneous violation on A and B.

Cancel the shot and go to the next one. If there is no next one, use the arrow.

You did it right.

2. There are no do-overs. If you don't know how much time to take off the clock, start from POI and make sure the clock starts.

Always try to have a count in this case so you know how much time to take off the clock.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Adam

1. Once the shooter has the ball with A2 in the defensive spot, it's a simultaneous violation on A and B.

Wait.

What?

Why a double violation?? Are you confusing this with A having a player in the first space?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Wait.

What?

Why a double violation?? Are you confusing this with A having a player in the first space?

Doh! Yes.

Did they add a restriction on the top space this year? Unless this made a third offensive player... In which case, I'm wondering if there's a penalty for violating (a) above.

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by Adam

Doh! Yes.

Did they add a restriction on the top space this year? Unless this made a third offensive player... In which case, I'm wondering if there's a penalty for violating (a) above.

No sir ... however, the offense is still restricted to only two players in a marked lane space.

[PG_Ref]

1. The only requirement is that the defense shall occupy the first marked lane spaces (under normal conditions). Other spaces may be occupied by either offense or defense.

ART. 4

During a free throw, lane spaces may be occupied as follows:

a. Marked lane spaces shall be occupied by a maximum of two offensive players; four defensive players may occupy lane spaces.

b. The lane areas from the end line up to, and including, the neutral-zone marks shall remain vacant.

c. The first marked lane spaces on each side of the lane, above and adjacent to the neutral-zone marks, shall be occupied by opponents of the free thrower. No teammate of the free thrower shall occupy either of these marked lane spaces.

d. The second marked lane spaces on each side may be occupied by teammates of the free thrower.

e. The third marked lane spaces on each side, nearest the free thrower, may be occupied by the opponents of the free thrower.

f. Players shall be permitted to move along and across the lane to occupy a vacant marked lane space within the limitations listed in this rule.

g. Not more than one player may occupy any part of a marked lane space.

Originally Posted by uneek1

I had this happen in two games I did over the weekend.

1. As the lead official I administered a foul shot to Team A I did not catch that team A had a player in the space near the shooter which they can not have. I give the ball to the Shooter and he then tells the player to leave the lane for def purposes. The shooter makes it and I call a violation. The Coach for team A feels the basket should count since player A shouldn't have been there in the first place. My explanation was that we granted him that spot so when we put the ball in play he is in legal position and therefore could secure a rebound as well without penalty. I called violation because he moved after the shooter had the ball regardless of his position in the lane is this correct?

Welcome to The Forum!

You call was correct but your reasoning is slightly off.

I would suggest calling the violation when it occurs, not when the offensive player makes the free throw. If he has the ball at his disposal and his teammate leaves the lane, the play is technically dead right then, even before the free throw is taken. The only delayed violations are on the defense.

Originally Posted by uneek1

2. We had a situation where there was 6 seconds left in a game. Team A inbounds from their defensive end and start up court we notice when they get to around mid court the clock did not start on inbound but did start before we caught it. We put the ball in play at point of interruption. Was that correct or should we have started at the original point prior to the clock error?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

You did it correctly.

You can only correct the clock if you have definite knowledge of how much time should be on/off the clock. You can use an officials count (10 second count usually) to take time off. If you don't have an official count then you can not correct the clock. Leave the clock as is, and inbound from where the ball was when you blew your whistle to address the clock error (the point of interruption or POI).

[uneek1]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Welcome to The Forum!

You call was correct but your reasoning is slightly off.

I would suggest calling the violation when it occurs, not when the offensive player makes the free throw. If he has the ball at his disposal and his teammate leaves the lane, the play is technically dead right then, even before the free throw is taken. The only delayed violations are on the defense.



You did it correctly.

You can only correct the clock if you have definite knowledge of how much time should be on/off the clock. You can use an officials count (10 second count usually) to take time off. If you don't have an official count then you can not correct the clock. Leave the clock as is, and inbound from where the ball was when you blew your whistle to address the clock error (the point of interruption or POI).

Thanks I wasn't sure on the first one because the rules change between who can occupy what spaces. So I am clear it doesn't not matter who occupies the top spaces it can be occupied by off/or def as long as off has no more than three players including the shooter.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by uneek1

Thanks I wasn't sure on the first one because the rules change between who can occupy what spaces. So I am clear it doesn't not matter who occupies the top spaces it can be occupied by off/or def as long as off has no more than three players including the shooter.

Correct. Keep in mind, it belongs to the defense if they want it, but if they don't take it, the offensive player can slide up into that spot: or cross the paint and double up on that side (as long as he is in position prior to the shooter catching the bounce from the official).

And Aremred is right, that's an immediate violation. I was so distrought from reading it wrong I forgot to point that out.

PS: What rule change?

[KenThree]

I don't believe just anyone can occupy the second and third lane spaces.

Rule 8-1-4 indicates that a teammate of the thrower "may" occupy the second lane space and an opponent of the free thrower "may" occupy the third lane space.

"May" indicates that the teammate in the second lane space or the opponent in the third lane space is not required. It can be left vacant. The first space, as we know, cannot be left vacant by an opponent of the shooter without penalty.

Nothing in the rule allows for an opponent to occupy the second space or a teammate to occupy the third space.

In other words, you couldn't have three opponents of the shooter on one side of the lane and one on the other side in the first space for the maximum of four for the opponent.

[Raymond]

The only requirements are 2 defensive players on each lower block; no more than 4 defensive and 2 offensive players along the lane line. Following those restrictions, players can occupy any open slot.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by KenThree

I don't believe just anyone can occupy the second and third lane spaces.

Rule 8-1-4 indicates that a teammate of the thrower "may" occupy the second lane space and an opponent of the free thrower "may" occupy the third lane space.

"May" indicates that the teammate in the second lane space or the opponent in the third lane space is not required. It can be left vacant. The first space, as we know, cannot be left vacant by an opponent of the shooter without penalty.

Nothing in the rule allows for an opponent to occupy the second space or a teammate to occupy the third space.

In other words, you couldn't have three opponents of the shooter on one side of the lane and one on the other side in the first space for the maximum of four for the opponent.

8-1-4f and the NFHS Casebook say otherwise.

8-1-4f. Players shall be permitted to move along and across the lane to occupy a vacant marked lane space within the limitations listed in this rule.


8.1.4 SITUATION:

A1 is at the free-throw line for the first attempt of a bonus situation. In (a), two Team B and two Team A players occupy the first and second marked lane spaces, respectively. B3 occupies one of the third marked lane spaces. A3 attempts to occupy the vacant third marked lane space; or (b) two Team B players occupy the first marked lane spaces. The offense chooses not to occupy any marked lane spaces. Two more Team B players choose to occupy the second marked lane spaces.

RULING: Illegal in (a), A3 is not permitted to occupy the third marked lane space. Only two offensive players may occupy marked lane spaces during a free throw. If the improper alignment is not corrected prior to the thrower having the ball at his/her disposal, a free-throw violation shall be called on Team A immediately. Legal in (b), four defensive players are permitted in any of the first three vacant marked lane spaces.

[ODog]

Originally Posted by uneek1

2. We had a situation where there was 6 seconds left in a game. Team A inbounds from their defensive end and start up court we notice when they get to around mid court the clock did not start on inbound but did start before we caught it. We put the ball in play at point of interruption. Was that correct or should we have started at the original point prior to the clock error?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

The lesson here is ALWAYS count (especially in these situations).

Even though you will not be counting 10 seconds once the ball is controlled in the backcourt, since it is an end-of-period scenario, a simple count will nonetheless come in handy when this inevitably comes up.

The only reason I know is because it's happened to me. Won't get burned like that again.

Huddle up with partner before the final play (if a timeout precedes it) and just let your VISIBLE count do the work. That way, in addition to having definite knowledge, you won't have to stop the game at its most critical juncture and penalize a team for timekeeper incompetence.

Originally Posted by ODog

The lesson here is ALWAYS count (especially in these situations).

Even though you will not be counting 10 seconds once the ball is controlled in the backcourt, since it is an end-of-period scenario, a simple count will nonetheless come in handy when this inevitably comes up.

The only reason I know is because it's happened to me. Won't get burned like that again.

Huddle up with partner before the final play (if a timeout precedes it) and just let your VISIBLE count do the work. That way, in addition to having definite knowledge, you won't have to stop the game at its most critical juncture and penalize a team for timekeeper incompetence.

So you will do a visible count in low-clock situations when none is required by rule?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by AremRed

So you will do a visible count in low-clock situations when none is required by rule?

Are you saying there is something wrong with this? I try to have a count in this situation, but it may not be visible. If it is visible it would obviously be easier to sell. As opposed to:

"Aw, he's just making stuff up now!"