Held ball or foul?

[Pantherdreams]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

A1, standing, holding the ball, is run into by B1, who then reaches for the ball. FOUL.

A1, lying on the floor, holding the ball, is jumped on by B1, who then reaches for the ball. FOUL.

JMHO (Yeah, I'm sometimes not subtle in expressing my opinion.)

No disagreement in principle beyond when we use words phrases like "jumped on" or "runs into" mentally each person can see something very different. If I see player laying on the floor and to get the ball they are holding a player reaches down for the ball and leaves their feet landing on the ball and player. That is very different from someone who dives shoulder first into someone and then reaches for the ball. Both "jumped on a player".

Same as if someone is standing and the defender closes the space grabbing and the ball and creating contact at the same time, that is very different from someone who comes in checks a player off balance and then goes for the ball. Players run into/bump into (pick an adjective I guess) players all the time but if that contact doesn't knock them off stride or off the balance/rythm etc then its not a foul. If it wouldn't be a foul in that situation, the next play when tying up the ball legally shouldn't become a foul because after there was incidental contact and then there was a jump ball.

Player with the ball has no expectation of time and space. That doesn't give defenders a license to hit them but it does allow them to be tight enough that unless the player with the ball reverse pivots or moves the ball away that the ball would be in contact with the defender and certain parts of the body woudl likely be body to body. This includes the player on the floor who has the added problem of not being able to move away (which isn't the defenses problem and shouldn't take away/change any regular rules applying to them).

To be clear if the player is on the floor and some jumps into them violently discplacing them or moving them into a travel or jarring the ball loose then I'm going to have a foul. If a player is standing by or above a player laying on the ground and jumps on the ball another player is holding and lands on the player as a result that's not getting a foul.