To Another Player: "You F***ing Suck."

[Rooster]

High school club teams. Team A was up by 20 points in the first half and Team B had no chance in this game. They were completely outclassed. According to one of my partners A1 was a dbag in a previous game and got a T. During our game he maintained our attention as a problem child but nothing past the point of just being on our radar. I had called a foul on him earlier and he tried the stare-down thing, which I ignored with a 1000 yard stare in another direction. Fast forward to a play to the basket and A1 makes a layup with a bit of contact, on which I pass. B1 says something chippy and A1, doing a backward skippy kind of trot says to B1, "You ain't nothing. You f***ing suck." as we were going up the court. Tweet, flagrant T. Partners don't like it as a flagrant AT ALL. The bigger dog on the game has college experience and ripped me thusly:
"You don't go with a flagrant there. You try that bulls**t in college and you'll have your games taken away or even get fired. That's just bad."
Smaller dog: "A1's team had travelled two hours to be here. They paid to be here. Let him hang himself and we'll run him with his second T."
etc, etc.

Evidently it was a big deal for running a kid for saying what he did. I would like to get a few other opinions about what is and is not a flagrant T.

Background: I am going to my first JC tryout camp this summer. I'm not a young pup but somewhat new to the officiating corps (with five years experience) and have nextlevelitis. I must admit, this shook my confidence in my judgement. I thought it was an easy one because the next steps would have resulted in a fight. I know there are no shortcuts but I'd like to learn the differences between junior college basketball players and coaches and the HS level so I'm not a doormat and then criticized for having no backbone.

Thoughts?

[Camron Rust]

If it were a HS or college game, I'd agree with the advice you received.

Rec league game, no problem with what you called. Could you have called only a T? Sure. And you would likely have a chance for the 2nd one later if he was truly trouble.

Going straight to the flagrant takes a little bit of guts. Kudo to you for not taking the easy way out.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Rooster

, "You ain't nothing. You f***ing suck." "You don't go with a flagrant there. You try that bulls**t in college and you'll have your games taken away or even get fired. That's just bad."

We ain't in college, Jack. These are high school kids. I'm with you. This is unacceptable.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Rooster

High school club teams. Team A was up by 20 points in the first half and Team B had no chance in this game. They were completely outclassed. According to one of my partners A1 was a dbag in a previous game and got a T. During our game he maintained our attention as a problem child but nothing past the point of just being on our radar. I had called a foul on him earlier and he tried the stare-down thing, which I ignored with a 1000 yard stare in another direction. Fast forward to a play to the basket and A1 makes a layup with a bit of contact, on which I pass. B1 says something chippy and A1, doing a backward skippy kind of trot says to B1, "You ain't nothing. You f***ing suck." as we were going up the court. Tweet, flagrant T. Partners don't like it as a flagrant AT ALL. The bigger dog on the game has college experience and ripped me thusly:
"You don't go with a flagrant there. You try that bulls**t in college and you'll have your games taken away or even get fired. That's just bad."
Smaller dog: "A1's team had travelled two hours to be here. They paid to be here. Let him hang himself and we'll run him with his second T."
etc, etc.

Evidently it was a big deal for running a kid for saying what he did. I would like to get a few other opinions about what is and is not a flagrant T.

Background: I am going to my first JC tryout camp this summer. I'm not a young pup but somewhat new to the officiating corps (with five years experience) and have nextlevelitis. I must admit, this shook my confidence in my judgement. I thought it was an easy one because the next steps would have resulted in a fight. I know there are no shortcuts but I'd like to learn the differences between junior college basketball players and coaches and the HS level so I'm not a doormat and then criticized for having no backbone.

Thoughts?

HS age players? Flagrant T, not even a second thought.

I actually disagree with Cameron. In an organized HS game, I'm going flagrant T just as quickly.

[JRutledge]

If this was a high school game I probably would have no problem if someone ruled this flagrant. It would depend on the tone of the game. Some off season mess, I really have no problem with a flagrant. They are happy to even be playing anything at that time. I have less tolerant for any crap in the off-season.

Peace

[Rich]

In a HS game, I know I'm going to be supported by the people I'm writing reports for.

[Rooster]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If it were a HS or college game, I'd agree with the advice you received.

Meaning just the T, or class A in a college game, right?

Originally Posted by Rich

HS age players? Flagrant T, not even a second thought.

I actually disagree with Cameron. In an organized HS game, I'm going flagrant T just as quickly.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If this was a high school game I probably would have no problem if someone ruled this flagrant. It would depend on the tone of the game.

Peace

Originally Posted by Rich

In a HS game, I know I'm going to be supported by the people I'm writing reports for.

Just for funsies, what if we take the f-word out of the equation? Just the T, yes? This was a first for me.

[deecee]

I got a T for what he said. If he throws out a racial slur for example I would upgrade to Flagrant. But just for what he said I don't see a flagrant.

However, with that said, my tolerance depends on the time and place.

[LRZ]

A1 did respond to some provocation (B1 said "something chippy"), which might have lessened my response from flagrant to ordinary T, but I'm not going to secondguess you for making that call in the context as you saw it. I also think your partners could have been a little more supportive: the fact is it was not a college game and for the big dog to call it bullsh*t and "that's just bad" was to question your judgment. And I'd make no distinction between HS and HS rec league--either way, the language and conduct are unacceptable.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Rich

HS age players? Flagrant T, not even a second thought.

I actually disagree with Cameron. In an organized HS game, I'm going flagrant T just as quickly.

No problem with that. I suppose it would really depend on the rest of what was happening in the game for me. I could see going flagrant or not.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Rooster

High school club teams. Team A was up by 20 points in the first half and Team B had no chance in this game. They were completely outclassed. According to one of my partners A1 was a dbag in a previous game and got a T. During our game he maintained our attention as a problem child but nothing past the point of just being on our radar. I had called a foul on him earlier and he tried the stare-down thing, which I ignored with a 1000 yard stare in another direction. Fast forward to a play to the basket and A1 makes a layup with a bit of contact, on which I pass. B1 says something chippy and A1, doing a backward skippy kind of trot says to B1, "You ain't nothing. You f***ing suck." as we were going up the court. Tweet, flagrant T. Partners don't like it as a flagrant AT ALL. The bigger dog on the game has college experience and ripped me thusly:
"You don't go with a flagrant there. You try that bulls**t in college and you'll have your games taken away or even get fired. That's just bad."
Smaller dog: "A1's team had travelled two hours to be here. They paid to be here. Let him hang himself and we'll run him with his second T."
etc, etc.

Evidently it was a big deal for running a kid for saying what he did. I would like to get a few other opinions about what is and is not a flagrant T.

Background: I am going to my first JC tryout camp this summer. I'm not a young pup but somewhat new to the officiating corps (with five years experience) and have nextlevelitis. I must admit, this shook my confidence in my judgement. I thought it was an easy one because the next steps would have resulted in a fight. I know there are no shortcuts but I'd like to learn the differences between junior college basketball players and coaches and the HS level so I'm not a doormat and then criticized for having no backbone.

Thoughts?

College level, perhaps a class A T is good.

HS ball, have a good day, son. If they paid that much money to come play, they will need to have a better understanding of what's expected.

I hope your partners didn't rip you on the court for that.

[pfan1981]

Had a game this year where I mentioned I heard some f bombs floating around to a coach, he asked, "Towards you?" I replied, "No." He looked at me with this dumb look on his face, like they can talk junk to each other but not to an official. I replied to his dumb look with, "If I hear it again, they're gone."

No place for junk talk and F bombs in HS athletics, period.

I couldn't pin down who said the original F bomb, otherwise I would have chatted with him.

[BryanV21]

"you suck" = tech
"you f'n suck" = ejection

I'm not a college official, so I'm not going to pretend to know what's best there. But as a high school official, and this involving high school age kids (in season or not), I see the first one as taunting, and worthy of a tech. The second one, with the f bomb, is worthy of an ejection.

Your partners sound like a-holes. Especially the first guy, as there's no reason to talk down to you like that. The second guy because his reasoning for not calling the flagrant tech is ridiculous. Travelling far and/or paying to play does not give anybody the right to act a fool.

I've had senior officials talk down to me, too. Not that bad, but enough that it angered me. I had to learn to separate the message from the way it was delivered.

I'm curious what the player for Team B actually said. I mean, was what he said perhaps worthy of a regular tech?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

There are some who say that the amateur game has past me by, but I still believe that certain type of conduct has always and will always be unacceptable.

A college athlete dropping an F-bomb is unacceptable conduct deserving of being ejected. Those people who attend college are students first. Those students who participate in extracurricular activities that athletes second.

MTD, Sr.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

There are some who say that the amateur game has past me by, but I still believe that certain type of conduct has always and will always be unacceptable.

A college athlete dropping an F-bomb is unacceptable conduct deserving of being ejected. Those people who attend college are students first. Those students who participate in extracurricular activities that athletes second.

MTD, Sr.

At the college level they are after all adults. If you expect to only hear nice words, that is very unrealistic. Just because they are students does not change that fact. Ever go to a college party?

And I am not advocating for bad language, just knowing that you would have to T up everyone if we penalized college players for bad language, including the F-word.

And if a kid dislocates their ankle or blows out a knee, I am probably not going to be so eager to penalize them for using the F-word in a moment of pain, no matter the age. Context can still matter in these situations.

Peace