To Another Player: "You F***ing Suck."

[just another ref]

I have seen expectations of various aspects of our business as being similar to those in the rest of the world. (general appearance, how to dress on arrival, etc.) I think that applies here. Is it acceptable for opponents in a business meeting to scream profanity at each other during a conflict? I think not. With that in mind, it is not unreasonable to expect the same amount of restraint during the game. If a player blows out his ACL, I can see letting pretty much anything slide, but a verbal assault on an opponent I see as unacceptable. I personally would apply the same standards for college, but I yield to others for what is the acceptable standard there. As stated by Rich, I am confident I would have backing from above in enforcement of this concept here.

[Coach Bill]

Originally Posted by Rooster

High school club teams.

What are high school "club" teams? Is that something less than Varsity?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

What are high school "club" teams? Is that something less than Varsity?

Off season ball, lots of travel. I wouldn't call them "less than varsity," but I certainly put up with less in the off season for two reasons.

1. These coaches don't answer to an AD, so sometimes we have to tamp down the behavior at an earlier point.

2. They pay is significantly less. I'll give my full effort to the game, but I'm not going to expend much effort trying to prevent a T here. The deterrent effect is valuable. I'm not there to make friends.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

What are high school "club" teams? Is that something less than Varsity?

Originally Posted by Adam

Off season ball, lots of travel. I wouldn't call them "less than varsity," but I certainly put up with less in the off season for two reasons.

1. These coaches don't answer to an AD, so sometimes we have to tamp down the behavior at an earlier point.

2. They pay is significantly less. I'll give my full effort to the game, but I'm not going to expend much effort trying to prevent a T here. The deterrent effect is valuable. I'm not there to make friends.

Either that, or they are kids that are "Varisty" aged but are not on any school team. Just a glorified rec league.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Rooster

High school club teams....According to one of my partners A1 was a dbag in a previous game and got a T.

Big red warning sign at the start of the game.

Originally Posted by Rooster

I had called a foul on him earlier and he tried the stare-down thing, which I ignored with a 1000 yard stare in another direction.

Given what you knew coming into the game that might have been enough to either address him or even ring him up. Regardless, if the kid who might put s#$! into your game pulls one of those ignoring him may not be the best option.

Originally Posted by Rooster

B1 says something chippy and A1, doing a backward skippy kind of trot says to B1, "You ain't nothing. You f***ing suck." as we were going up the court.

I won't fault you for running the kid but it sounds as though he was provoked in this instance. Since the other kid mouthed off first it probably would've been good to get them both.

Originally Posted by Rooster

"You don't go with a flagrant there. You try that bulls**t in college and you'll have your games taken away or even get fired. That's just bad."
Smaller dog: "A1's team had traveled two hours to be here. They paid to be here. Let him hang himself and we'll run him with his second T."
etc, etc.

1. It's not a college game.
2. It's not your fault the team traveled two hours and paid to be there. If the kid wants to play an entire game - at his current level or the next - he'll learn to keep his mouth shut.

Ultimately, use it as a learning experience.

Originally Posted by Rooster

I had called a foul on him earlier and he tried the stare-down thing, which I ignored with a 1000 yard stare in another direction.

What JetMet said jogged my memory; this is definitely a "Get away from me Steve" situation.

[Rooster]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

I won't fault you for running the kid but it sounds as though he was provoked in this instance. Since the other kid mouthed off first it probably would've been good to get them both.

Originally Posted by LRZ

A1 did respond to some provocation (B1 said "something chippy"), which might have lessened my response from flagrant to ordinary T, but I'm not going to secondguess you for making that call in the context as you saw it.

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I'm curious what the player for Team B actually said. I mean, was what he said perhaps worthy of a regular tech?

It was run of the mill woofing that, if A1 didn't say anything, would have warranted a talking-to as we're heading up the court and if A1 would have said anything other than the magic adjective, I'd like to think I would have had a double T.

Originally Posted by LRZ

I also think your partners could have been a little more supportive: the fact is it was not a college game and for the big dog to call it bullsh*t and "that's just bad" was to question your judgment.

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Your partners sound like a-holes. Especially the first guy, as there's no reason to talk down to you like that. The second guy because his reasoning for not calling the flagrant tech is ridiculous. Travelling far and/or paying to play does not give anybody the right to act a fool.

I've had senior officials talk down to me, too. Not that bad, but enough that it angered me. I had to learn to separate the message from the way it was delivered.

Originally Posted by Adam

I hope your partners didn't rip you on the court for that.

They did, but it was when we we came together to discuss it. I was unhappy with that but I'm trying to implement "separate the message from the delivery" concept.

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

What are high school "club" teams? Is that something less than Varsity?

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Either that, or they are kids that are "Varisty" aged but are not on any school team. Just a glorified rec league.

Yep, a glorified rec league. I'm pretty sure there's no official AAU affiliation. Coaches around here will charge a lot of money per month per kid and they'll have several levels, up to high school kids. Some games are played mostly on Saturdays but for the most part, games are played in tournaments during the summer, with some kids playing on two different teams. It seems hectic and chaotic to me, but I've never been involved in any of that...

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Big red warning sign at the start of the game.

Given what you knew coming into the game that might have been enough to either address him or even ring him up. Regardless, if the kid who might put s#$! into your game pulls one of those ignoring him may not be the best option.

Originally Posted by AremRed

What JetMet said jogged my memory; this is definitely a "Get away from me Steve" situation.

At this point I still wanted to give him the benefit of a fresh start and didn't want to take the bait. I wasn't going to pick up the rope in his tug-of-war offer.

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Ultimately, use it as a learning experience.

Definitely, but it becomes more valuable with what's been offered here. Thanks to everyone.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Rooster

The bigger dog on the game has college experience and ripped me thusly:
"You don't go with a flagrant there. You try that bulls**t in college and you'll have your games taken away or even get fired. That's just bad."
Smaller dog: "A1's team had travelled two hours to be here. They paid to be here. Let him hang himself and we'll run him with his second T."

I would avoid putting too much emphasis on who is the bigger dog during the game, especially when any part of what the biggest dog is saying is not relevant to the situation at hand. (in college games we.......) As stated earlier, how far the team traveled has zero to do with anything, no matter what the level.

You're working this game together. For today, you're all the same size dog.

[Rooster]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I would avoid putting too much emphasis on who is the bigger dog during the game, especially when any part of what the biggest dog is saying is not relevant to the situation at hand. (in college games we.......) As stated earlier, how far the team traveled has zero to do with anything, no matter what the level.

You're working this game together. For today, you're all the same size dog.

I'm burning this in!

As my confidence rises, my backbone stiffens.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

...You're working this game together. For today, you're all the same size dog.

Whatever game I'm working, I avoid any type of conversation at all about any higher level ball I may work. Has nothing to do with that day's game.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Whatever game I'm working, I avoid any type of conversation at all about any higher level ball I may work. Has nothing to do with that day's game.

Maybe, but in most associations, you know who the big dogs are. Here, in summer ball, there are a lot of guys who work state tournaments, college, etc. It's a large group, but not so large you don't know which guys are the ones you should listen to.

[rockyroad]

Not sure how "You f'ing suck" is not at least a T...and no problems at all with you tossing the kid.

Big Dawgs screw up sometimes, too.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Not sure how "You f'ing suck" is not at least a T...and no problems at all with you tossing the kid.

Big Dawgs screw up sometimes, too.

Agreed, but a Big Dawg screwing up shouldn't involve berating a newer official on the court, no matter how "privately" it was done.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Adam

Maybe, but in most associations, you know who the big dogs are. Here, in summer ball, there are a lot of guys who work state tournaments, college, etc. It's a large group, but not so large you don't know which guys are the ones you should listen to.

Folks may or may not know what I work, but when I give advise I never bring ip where I work. I will say things like 'as you move up. . .' or 'as you officiate better athletes'.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by Rooster

The bigger dog on the game has college experience and ripped me thusly:
"You don't go with a flagrant there. You try that bulls**t in college and you'll have your games taken away or even get fired. That's just bad."
Smaller dog: "A1's team had travelled two hours to be here. They paid to be here. Let him hang himself and we'll run him with his second T."
etc, etc.

Did this happen during the game (during a timeout or other break)? OR in the locker room after or at halftime?

I've never had an experience where a partner would make a scene and question a call out on the floor -- I guess I've been lucky in that regards. If my partners started questioning a call like that during a game, I'd say something like "let's talk about it at halftime/post game; nothing that can be changed now" and then walk away.