Wisconsin-Arizona Player Control Foul (Video)

[canuckrefguy]

Originally Posted by APG

If you all will harken back to last year when Seth Davis ran that "block or charge" quiz on his blog in conjunction with NCAA Director of Officiating John Adams...Adams focused on plays EXACTLY like this - and commented that officials were calling it wrong much of the time.

This was a great call. And it's why Tony Greene has been in the national championship game three or four times.

[tomegun]

I looked at the video, looked up the definition of lateral (just to make sure I'm not crazy), looked at the video again and asked my wife to look at the video. If someone can move laterally while their body is moving in the direction they are facing, and they take one step in that direction prior to contact, then yes I agree the player was moving laterally.

This play could make the NCAA video for next season. Tough play in a tough situation.

I purposely didn't mention the official or past accomplishments as that has no bearing on a discussion about the call to me.

[APG]

I've got a foul on the defender for moving forward into the dribbler prior to the push off by the dribbler.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by APG

I've got a foul on the defender for moving forward into the dribbler prior to the push off by the dribbler.

So do I for the same reason. I see W21 moving into F13 before the push by F13.

I also have continuation on the play.

Originally Posted by tomegun

I purposely didn't mention the official or past accomplishments as that has no bearing on a discussion about the call to me.

Agreed.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by APG

I've got a foul on the defender for moving forward into the dribbler prior to the push off by the dribbler.

Agreed. Like the Michigan St. game, the big push off was retaliation for the initial contact.

[canuckrefguy]

The ONLY point at which there is contact between the two players:







If the dribbler continues on his path without pushing off, there is no question of a defensive foul and continuation. The problem is he doesn't do that. He pushes off BEFORE there is any illegal contact by the defender.

It's a bang-bang play, and as close as it gets - but I still like the offensive foul call - whether it's Tony Greene, APG, or even TCW calling it

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I looked at the video, looked up the definition of lateral (just to make sure I'm not crazy), looked at the video again and asked my wife to look at the video. If someone can move laterally while their body is moving in the direction they are facing, and they take one step in that direction prior to contact, then yes I agree the player was moving laterally.

This play could make the NCAA video for next season. Tough play in a tough situation.

I purposely didn't mention the official or past accomplishments as that has no bearing on a discussion about the call to me.

Very objective and fair of you. Given that you most likely know Tony from your days in the DC area, I applaud your effort to try to eliminate the personal aspect of the people involved and just examine the basketball elements of the play.
This is the manner in which all of us should be viewing these videos and refraining from leveling personal accusations against any of the officials involved. I thank Tomegun for leading us in the right direction as we strive to learn and improve ourselves. Let's do so with class.

Originally Posted by APG

I've got a foul on the defender for moving forward into the dribbler prior to the push off by the dribbler.

It is difficult for me to tell if the defender simply played strong and physical defense while both players were moving or if he created illegal contact.
I'll wait until I can watch the video on a screen bigger than 2"x3".

[blindzebra]

Block happened first.

The defender was draped over the offensive player to the point his arm pit was touching his head.

[Johnny Ringo]

This seems to be a coin toss amongst officials. For me, the coin lands on "I like the call" that was made.

I think this is an ant/elephant play. The ant is the illegal contact by the defender. The elephant is the push-off by the offensive player.

[APG]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I think this is an ant/elephant play. The ant is the illegal contact by the defender. The elephant is the push-off by the offensive player.

The whole reason the guy is pushing off is cause a defender is running into him.

Originally Posted by APG

The whole reason the guy is pushing off is cause a defender is running into him.

I see your point, but they are closing in on each other about equally. I see the initial contact as marginal and the push-off as illegal. I think the obvious call here is PC....while block could be correct as well, PC is more correct.

[blindzebra]

You can see Johnson's head move after the defender hit him, to me that makes it far from marginal. The push off looked worse than it was because the defender was off balance and stumbled.

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

You can see Johnson's head move after the defender hit him, to me that makes it far from marginal. The push off looked worse than it was because the defender was off balance and stumbled.

Indeed.

There is a pretty clear blocking foul there. Now, I don't terrible mind the idea of passing on it and letting it play out in that situation.

But I am at a loss as to how you pass on contact on a dribbler going to the basket, then nail the dribbler for an offensive foul that is almost certainly in response to the initial illegal contact.

The push off absent the contact would be a great, GREAT call. Ignoring the defensive foul, then calling the offensive in that situation is baffling to me.

[canuckrefguy]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

You can see Johnson's head move after the defender hit him, to me that makes it far from marginal. The push off looked worse than it was because the defender was off balance and stumbled.

Everybody talks like there's more than one point of contact here. There isn't. The two players only contact each other ONCE - when the dribbler pushes off.

A split-second BEFORE the defender would have knocked him off course, the dribbler extends his arm and pushes him away. The dribbler's head moved as part of the arm motion that formed the push-off, not because of any contact by the defender.

If the dribbler just keeps going instead of pushing off - he gets a defensive foul.

But he DIDN'T just keep going. He pushed off instead.

Offensive foul.

Good call.