Team Control Foul and Player Control

[The_Rookie]

I am just going to ask this because I had a veteran tell me differently.

Do we shoot free throws for player control or team control fouls when the other team is in the bonus?

My understanding of rule 10-1B under penalties states no free throws and no exception is listed.

Thanks!

[JRutledge]

If you know what the rule is, why are you asking?

Of course you do not shoot FTs on either of those situations. What is the definition of a player or team control foul?

Peace

[The_Rookie]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you know what the rule is, why are you asking?

Of course you do not shoot FTs on either of those situations. What is the definition of a player or team control foul?

Peace

I was on the court today with a 20 yr vet and I called a player control foul and said white ball on the end line..he said nope bonus situation white to shoot! So I showed deference and thinking I misunderstood the rule somehow...

Truth be told it really P's me off..

[JRutledge]

Gotcha.

One thing younger officials need to learn is when to stand up in those situations. You were clearly right but the learning is when to stand your ground.

Keep in mind that someone working 20 years might be a person with 20 one year experiences. Now you know, now do not let anyone do that to you again without a fight.

That is a pretty basic rule and I am shocked that a person of that experience would not at least know that. But then again nothing really surprises me anymore.

Peace

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Gotcha.

One thing younger officials need to learn is when to stand up in those situations.

Peace

I hear you Rut...but, I have a little different perspective for this and other Rookie officials.

If the ROOKIE official is 100% sure that a rule is being misapplied by your VETERAN partner...then the ROOKIE official can politely ask the VETERAN to let you "live or die" with this call. If the VETERAN is adamant about doing it "there way" then, IMO, let them "live or die" with it. You can look it up, TOGETHER, after the game.

If you are playing the odds...usually the Veteran will be correct. The Rookie does not want to be "that guy" that is argumentative with the veterans. Be "that guy" that is respectful and correct! Also, be thankful to the veteran when a lesson on the court has been experienced.

This officiating gig is kind of political...if you haven't heard.

[bainsey]

Food for thought...

A couple of years ago, I'm working with a well-repsected veteran, JV boys.

Blue grabs a defensive rebound, and I'm a transitioning lead. I get halfway down the new frontcourt, when I hear a whistle behind me. My partner has blue foul, and he's calling for #20 white to take free throws. I hold him up at the table.

Me: "I was back there. Who had the foul?"
Him: "Blue #10."
Me: "Okay. So, it was a team control foul?"
Him: "Yeah, Blue #10."
Me: "Right. So, it was a team control foul?"
He pauses.
Me: "Where was the foul?"
He points to the spot, and it dawns on him.
Me: "I'll get the ball. You get the throw-in."
Him (smiles): "Thanks."

Rook, my veteran may have been receptive than yours. Still, sometimes, you just have to reiterate the situation, and let the synapses connect.

[JRutledge]

You are right you do not want to be "the guy" that argues, but you would not be "arguing" a wrong point. It is one thing to argue or to "yeah but" in an issue of a mechanic or a philosophy, but when you are working with someone and they are totally wrong about of all things a rule, that is unacceptable. At least you are in a position of strength. You can say "I tried."

But in the times I have been an official a PC foul never has resulted in FTs and TC fouls have been a recent rule change. I am just more shocked that any official with 5-10 years would not know this rule. You are right, things can be political but not sure this is about politics, but is about incompetence.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by The_Rookie

I was on the court today with a 20 yr vet and I called a player control foul and said white ball on the end line..he said nope bonus situation white to shoot! So I showed deference and thinking I misunderstood the rule somehow...

Truth be told it really P's me off..

Does your area require a rules exam every year? Amazing as it may seem, I've learned that several areas do not. Once the official obtains a certain certification level, he never needs to take the test again!
Perhaps your 20-year vet hadn't opened a rules book in 15 years.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Does your area require a rules exam every year? Amazing as it may seem, I've learned that several areas do not. Once the official obtains a certain certification level, he never needs to take the test again!
Perhaps your 20-year vet hadn't opened a rules book in 15 years.

I seriously doubt a rules test has anything to do with this situation. And if it is the NF test, I have less confidence in that having much to do with this situation either. People pick up rulebooks despite what test they have to take. At least that is my experience.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by The_Rookie

I called a player control foul and said white ball on the end line, he said nope bonus situation white to shoot!

Is it possible that he did not see your player control foul, or team control foul, signal? Is it possible that you did not give the correct player control foul, or team control foul, signal?

If neither is the case, did your bring up the situation, after the game, in the locker room, with your rulebook in your hand?

Last season I almost gave the ball to the wrong team on throwin because my partner did not give a team control foul signal.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Is it possible that he did not see your player control foul, or team control foul, signal? Is it possible that you did not give the correct player control foul, or team control foul, signal?

What was the actual sitch that resulted in you whistling the PC foul? Take us through it, including (to BillyMac's point) your siganal and reporting mechanic.

If neither is the case, did your bring up the situation, after the game, in the locker room, with your rulebook in your hand?
.

Also curious as to if/how this was covered in your post game.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Also curious as to if/how this was covered in your post game.

Vet most likely had a brain fart, and my experience is that most of them appreciate if you take a moment to clarify. Approach him, and quietly remind him that you don't shoot on PC or TC fouls. If he still insists, and you don't want to look horrible on the court, no problem.

Even more important here, imo, is a good post game discussion.

As Billy noted, he may not have known you had ruled it a pc. Or, he may have disagreed.

What was the situation?

[The_Rookie]

Originally Posted by Adam

Vet most likely had a brain fart, and my experience is that most of them appreciate if you take a moment to clarify. Approach him, and quietly remind him that you don't shoot on PC or TC fouls. If he still insists, and you don't want to look horrible on the court, no problem.

Even more important here, imo, is a good post game discussion.

As Billy noted, he may not have known you had ruled it a pc. Or, he may have disagreed.

What was the situation?

He knew that I had called a Player Control and when he lined up the players on the line to shoot..b4 I stepped in and said to him I called a PC..so why are we shooting..His response was we are in the bonus...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by The_Rookie

He knew that I had called a Player Control and when he lined up the players on the line to shoot..b4 I stepped in and said to him I called a PC..so why are we shooting..His response was we are in the bonus...

SMDH!!!!

Peace

[JWP]

Sometimes, the old computer upstairs just malfunctions. Last season, during an eighth-grade boys game, my very experienced, usually right-on partner called a five-second closely guarded call in the backcourt. After the game, he slapped himself upside the head ... he couldn't believe he had made such an error.

Me ... well, I'm the guy who, during a game featuring one team in white uniforms and the other team in blue uniforms, saw the ball go out of bounds, blew his whistle, raised his hand and shouted loud enough for the entire gym to hear, "Green ball!"