Shooting Foul? (Video)

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You're saying he can't get FTs if he is shooting but gives up after getting fouled and can't get the shot off due to the foul.

No, I'm saying if he gets fouled and decides to pass the ball instead of attempt a shot, then I'm not giving him FT's. I consider the play as a whole, I don't try to guess what he was doing. I call what he actually did.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Clever argument. You're the one claiming a player must continue to shoot after being fouled in order to still be considered to be shooting. As the one making that claim, it would be upon you to provide the citation to back up that claim.

I am claiming that. Unlike you however, I am not claiming any rules basis. Why do I need to provide a rules reference if I am not appealing to one? You are the one who countered that my method of determining shooting versus passing does not follow the rule. Thus, the burden to provide a rule reference lies with you and you alone

Thanks for that rule reference. As I thought, it is up to my (sometimes poor) judgement to determine whether a player is shooting or passing. My method for doing so involves seeing the play start, develop, and finish and making a judgement based on what the player actually does. I am sorry if my method perterbs you, but I cannot read a players mind as to what he wants to do. What he does is what I call.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by AremRed

No, I'm saying if he gets fouled and decides to pass the ball instead of attempt a shot, then I'm not giving him FT's. I consider the play as a whole, I don't try to guess what he was doing. I call what he actually did.



I am claiming that. Unlike you however, I am not claiming any rules basis. Why do I need to provide a rules reference if I am not appealing to one? You are the one who countered that my method of determining shooting versus passing does not follow the rule. Thus, the burden to provide a rule reference lies with you and you alone

Thanks for that rule reference. As I thought, it is up to my (sometimes poor) judgement to determine whether a player is shooting or passing. My method for doing so involves seeing the play start, develop, and finish and making a judgement based on what the player actually does. I am sorry if my method perterbs you, but I cannot read a players mind as to what he wants to do. What he does is what I call.

The problem with this play is that the offensive player had no way of continuing that shooting motion once the ball was knocked out by the foul.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I am claiming that. Unlike you however, I am not claiming any rules basis. Why do I need to provide a rules reference if I am not appealing to one?

So, you're making a ruling with no rules basis. Why? The definition of what the act of shooting is is pretty clear. Why not follow it? I prefer to follow what the rules say. Not make up my own and ask people to prove something that is made up is false.

Originally Posted by AremRed

You are the one who countered that my method of determining shooting versus passing does not follow the rule. Thus, the burden to provide a rule reference lies with you and you alone

I gave you the rule which defines act of shooting. You're choosing to ignore it. What rule allows you to do so?

Freeze frame at the time of the foul. What is the player doing at that moment? That is how the rules define the situation and how you should be ruling it. Anything else is your own made up interpretation.

Originally Posted by AremRed

Thanks for that rule reference. As I thought, it is up to my (sometimes poor) judgement to determine whether a player is shooting or passing. My method for doing so involves seeing the play start, develop, and finish and making a judgement based on what the player actually does. I am sorry if my method perterbs you, but I cannot read a players mind as to what he wants to do. What he does is what I call.

Then you are misapplying the whole concept of SDF. It has nothing to do with determining if the player was shooting or not. It is ONLY about deciding if a foul occurred or now.

You personal interpretation is rewarding defender for fouling. You're making the shooter guess whether you're going to blow the whistle or not. With your interpretation, they have to assume you are going to blow the whistle and still try to complete the shot. Then, if you don't, they're left with no option. The pass they could have made is no longer available and they lose the ball. That is an unfair burden to put on the shooter who was fouled.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

So, you're making a ruling with no rules basis. Why? The definition of what the act of shooting is is pretty clear. Why not follow it? I prefer to follow what the rules say. Not make up my own and ask people to prove something that is made up is false.

I prefer to follow the rules too, but your claim is nonsensical. I didn't make up a rule, nor am I controverting or ignoring any rule. The rule says it is up to the "official’s judgment" to determine shooting versus passing. My method of determining shooting vs. passing is different than yours, that is all. I'm sorry if you disagree with my method.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I gave you the rule which defines act of shooting. You're choosing to ignore it. What rule allows you to do so?

There is no rule that says "if the player is intending to shoot (regardless of shooting motion or not) when he is fouled but passes the ball after the foul you must give FT's". As I have said several times, my method for making that shooting vs. passing judgement involves seeing the play start, develop, and finish and making a call based on what the player does.

I can't ignore a rule that doesn't exist

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

With your interpretation, they have to assume you are going to blow the whistle and still try to complete the shot.

If they are shooting, they will try to shoot. If they are passing, they will try to pass. We cannot use the starting of the shooting motion to determine whether a player is actually shooting or not. Why not? Because (even absent a foul) players will go up as if to shoot and then pass the ball to a teammate in a better position. We can only be patient with our whistle and make a decision based on the outcome.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The pass they could have made is no longer available and they lose the ball.

Losing the ball doesn't matter cuz the situation is assuming we call a foul.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Losing the ball doesn't matter cuz the situation is assuming we call a foul.

In this case, losing the ball matters a lot. He didn't shoot because he no longer had the ball due to the foul that occurred while he was trying to shoot the ball.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I prefer to follow the rules too, but your claim is nonsensical. I didn't make up a rule, nor am I controverting or ignoring any rule. The rule says it is up to the "official’s judgment" to determine shooting versus passing. My method of determining shooting vs. passing is different than yours, that is all. I'm sorry if you disagree with my method.

....

The rules are indeed clear. The rules define a try as starting when they start the shooting motion (with no qualification that they complete it). The rules define it as a shooting foul if the player was trying to to shoot when fouled. The rules also say that what follows doesn't matter....they don't have to release the shot. To then determine whether it is a shot or not based on what follows the foul is simply not correct by rule. You've screwed the shooter out of deserved FTs by doing so.

You're trying to call it judgement but it really isn't. You've already admitted that you decision isn't based on how the rules define a try (which is clearly defined in the definitions) but something else that is not in the rules. Nothing in the rules support outcome based decisions. They say exactly the opposite....it is about what the player is trying to do when they get foul. Judgement is supposed to be based on rules fundamentals, not on criteria that have no rules basis.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The rules are indeed clear. The rules define a try as starting when they start the shooting motion (with no qualification that they complete it).

Correct, 4-41-2 says a player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the officials judgement is throwing or attempting to throw for goal". The way I use my officials judgement is through the process that I have explained several times before: I wait until I see the whole play start, develop, and finish and then make my decision on the whole play, not just one aspect. If a player is trying to shoot, they will continue to shoot. If the player passes, he is not trying to shoot.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The rules also say that what follows doesn't matter....they don't have to release the shot.

Correct again. They do not have to release the shot.....but if they try to pass then the try is over; they are no longer shooting and thus are no longer entitled to FT's.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You're trying to call it judgement but it really isn't.

I don't need to call it judgement. The rules themselves call it judgement. You are the one contradicting the rules here -- you are saying this is not s judgement when the rules say it is.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You've already admitted that you decision isn't based on how the rules define a try (which is clearly defined in the definitions) but something else that is not in the rules.

False. My view correlates with what the rulebook says, and I feel I have explained it well. I am not throwing out how the rules define a try, or how they define the start or end of a try.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Nothing in the rules support outcome based decisions.

The rules clearly say it is up to the officials judgement. In my judgement, I use outcome-based decisions. Why would I do otherwise? I cannot read a players mind, I can only call what I see.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Correct again. They do not have to release the shot.....but if they try to pass then the try is over; they are no longer shooting and thus are no longer entitled to FT's.

That, right there, says it all. You just made my point. They were shooting but the shot has ended. Fouled while they were shooting....FTs coming. End of discussion.

[just another ref]

If I understand correctly now, it is a given in both plays under discussion that the player was in the act of shooting. Some say he gets no shots if it is obvious that the contact changes his intention, while others say he gets no shots if he's not obviously still trying to shoot regardless of his intentions.


There is no way to justify this that I can see.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by AremRed

No, I'm saying if he gets fouled and decides to pass the ball instead of attempt a shot, then I'm not giving him FT's. I consider the play as a whole, I don't try to guess what he was doing. I call what he actually did.

This is so blatantly wrong I can no longer take any other thing you might say on here seriously. ALL that matters is what he was doing at the moment of the foul. Whatever happens afterward is completely irrelevant - and the rule says pretty much exactly that.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

This is so blatantly wrong I can no longer take any other thing you might say on here seriously. ALL that matters is what he was doing at the moment of the foul. Whatever happens afterward is completely irrelevant - and the rule says pretty much exactly that.

I recall a pretty long debate not to long ago where quite a few took just that position. If a player starts to shoot, gets fouled, and then passes the ball, many here are going with a pass and thus no free throws (unless in the bonus).

In the OP, if the player hadn't had the ball knocked away from him, a few more would advocate for no shots.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Adam

I recall a pretty long debate not to long ago where quite a few took just that position. If a player starts to shoot, gets fouled, and then passes the ball, many here are going with a pass and thus no free throws (unless in the bonus).

In the OP, if the player hadn't had the ball knocked away from him, a few more would advocate for no shots.

I remember that. I believe that most, then, were saying that they couldn't award shots if the player passed the ball because they could not read the player's mind and didn't know if he was initially passing or shooting. Arem, however, said "if he gets fouled and decides to pass the ball instead of attempt a shot" - CLEARLY stating that this decision was AFTER the foul. The former is wrong (imho). The latter ... so incredibly wrong it can't be justified.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I remember that. I believe that most, then, were saying that they couldn't award shots if the player passed the ball because they could not read the player's mind and didn't know if he was initially passing or shooting. Arem, however, said "if he gets fouled and decides to pass the ball instead of attempt a shot" - CLEARLY stating that this decision was AFTER the foul. The former is wrong (imho). The latter ... so incredibly wrong it can't be justified.

I really don't see a practical difference between the two.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I remember that. I believe that most, then, were saying that they couldn't award shots if the player passed the ball because they could not read the player's mind and didn't know if he was initially passing or shooting. Arem, however, said "if he gets fouled and decides to pass the ball instead of attempt a shot" - CLEARLY stating that this decision was AFTER the foul. The former is wrong (imho). The latter ... so incredibly wrong it can't be justified.

If you can't tell what he was doing prior to the contact, well, you'll just have to make that decision anyway, one way or the other. Different officials seem to lean in different directions on this.

But in the case I'm remembering, it was a given that it was a shot attempt, but the contact forced the change to a pass. Some said they still wouldn't award free throws. BNR may be one of these and could elaborate.