"blarge call" high school

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

And when it is moving right along the line between the areas and not into or out of either area?

If this little mini-event was the only time blarge was called, then we wouldn't really have an issue - and the purpose for the "Tie goes to the nobody" rule here would make sense.

But it's not. It's used as a "Gee, I don't know" call FAR too often.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

If this little mini-event was the only time blarge was called, then we wouldn't really have an issue - and the purpose for the "Tie goes to the nobody" rule here would make sense.

But it's not. It's used as a "Gee, I don't know" call FAR too often.

Yes, that is an infrequent event but deciding which side of the line it happened on when it is a more typical situation is just as much a judgement call as the call itself. No matter how you slice it, any call near the change of primaries will be subject to double whistles. Short of restraint in making the call, you'll always have cases where the officials disagree and even disagree about who's primary it was really in. One has a charge, one has a block. Each claim it was in their primary, what do you do then?

No matter how you try to resolve this based on PCA's, it will always be flawed because there can be debate about where it actually occurred. And even if you fix that, it is still flawed because there is no guarantee that he one you default was the right one....probably about 50% chance.

I think it is better to stick both with a foul rather than the wrong one while the one that really deserved it gets nothing.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

If this little mini-event was the only time blarge was called, then we wouldn't really have an issue - and the purpose for the "Tie goes to the nobody" rule here would make sense.

But it's not. It's used as a "Gee, I don't know" call FAR too often.

Often? I've had exactly one of these in my career. One. In a summer game.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I think that we can divide this debate into two separate discussions:

1) The rule that defines Guarding.

2) How do we handle double whistles in general and a "blarge" in particular.


Discussion (1) is the easy discussion. We just know from our office in an "ivy covered, academic tower" that a "blarge" cannot exist. By rule there cannot be a "blarge". B-1 has either obtained (NFHS)/established (NCAA/FIBA) a LGP before contact between A-1 and B-1 occurs, or B-1 has not obtained/established a LGP.

Discussion (2) is about how we make our "big bucks" in the trenches when officiating a real game and not discussing hypothetical situations.

Double whistles are going to happen but hopefully we can keep them to a minimum. How we handle double whistles depends to some degree is determined by whether the game is a two-man crew of a three-man crew. They have two different philosophies to some degree. Two-man: It means that the vast majority of the time there should be one pair of eyes officiating on the ball and one pair of eyes officiating off the ball. Three-man: It means ,that depending upon position of the ball: there can be two pairs of eyes officiating on the ball and one pair of eyes officiating off the ball, OR, there can be one pair of eyes officiating on the ball and two pairs officiating of the ball.

The vast of majority of us have attended enough camps and we know that there are as many theories as to how to handle double whistles as there are camps.

I am not going to comment on the ways to handle double whistles that have been mentioned in the thread; but having a good pre-game goes a long way in reducing double whistles and how to handle the few double whistles that happen in one's game.

My concern in this thread is that the double whistle is a "blarge". The NFHS and NCAA Men's committees have given us, which in my humble () opinion a very unsatisfactory way to handle such a situation. While the NCAA Women's Committee recognizes (I will refrain from any snarky remarks, .) that by rule a "blarge" cannot happen and gives us guidelines as to how to solve the problem.

As a student of the rules of the game, it just makes my skin crawl, when I think of how the NFHS and the NCAA Men's committees want us to handle a "blarge". Their solution is not logical; it is not rational; nor can it be defended by rule. And everybody knows how I feel about interpretations that cannot be defended by rule, .

I have a story about a "blarge" that occurred in a boys' H.S. varsity game in Michigan about twenty years ago, but this post has gone on long enough.

MTD, Sr.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

...the NCAA Women's Committee recognizes (I will refrain from any snarky remarks, .) that by rule a "blarge" cannot happen and gives us guidelines as to how to solve the problem.

As a student of the rules of the game, it just makes my skin crawl, when I think of how the NFHS and the NCAA Men's committees want us to handle a "blarge". Their solution is not logical; it is not rational; nor can it be defended by rule. And everybody knows how I feel about interpretations that cannot be defended by rule, .

MTDS, you can be a snarky as you want. Just keep that "not logical" line in there about NFHS/NCAAM and I'm good.

[Rich]

I had one in a junior college game a few years ago. T called a charge on a play that was in the paint (I was the L - it was mine all day and twice Sunday) and was the most obvious block one could ever see.

When I looked in the direction of the C a few seconds after the double foul was reported, he started laughing and couldn't stop for a few minutes.

[ronny mulkey]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I think that we can divide this debate into two separate discussions:

1) The rule that defines Guarding.

2) How do we handle double whistles in general and a "blarge" in particular.


Discussion (1) is the easy discussion. We just know from our office in an "ivy covered, academic tower" that a "blarge" cannot exist. By rule there cannot be a "blarge". B-1 has either obtained (NFHS)/established (NCAA/FIBA) a LGP before contact between A-1 and B-1 occurs, or B-1 has not obtained/established a LGP.

Discussion (2) is about how we make our "big bucks" in the trenches when officiating a real game and not discussing hypothetical situations.

Double whistles are going to happen but hopefully we can keep them to a minimum. How we handle double whistles depends to some degree is determined by whether the game is a two-man crew of a three-man crew. They have two different philosophies to some degree. Two-man: It means that the vast majority of the time there should be one pair of eyes officiating on the ball and one pair of eyes officiating off the ball. Three-man: It means ,that depending upon position of the ball: there can be two pairs of eyes officiating on the ball and one pair of eyes officiating off the ball, OR, there can be one pair of eyes officiating on the ball and two pairs officiating of the ball.

The vast of majority of us have attended enough camps and we know that there are as many theories as to how to handle double whistles as there are camps.

I am not going to comment on the ways to handle double whistles that have been mentioned in the thread; but having a good pre-game goes a long way in reducing double whistles and how to handle the few double whistles that happen in one's game.

My concern in this thread is that the double whistle is a "blarge". The NFHS and NCAA Men's committees have given us, which in my humble () opinion a very unsatisfactory way to handle such a situation. While the NCAA Women's Committee recognizes (I will refrain from any snarky remarks, .) that by rule a "blarge" cannot happen and gives us guidelines as to how to solve the problem.

As a student of the rules of the game, it just makes my skin crawl, when I think of how the NFHS and the NCAA Men's committees want us to handle a "blarge". Their solution is not logical; it is not rational; nor can it be defended by rule. And everybody knows how I feel about interpretations that cannot be defended by rule, .

I have a story about a "blarge" that occurred in a boys' H.S. varsity game in Michigan about twenty years ago, but this post has gone on long enough.

MTD, Sr.

MTD,

Do you also believe that you can't have a "double foul" by rule? The rules committee has decided that the fouls were personal fouls committed against each other. I'm not saying that it is a better rule than the Women's, but the case book play makes it a rule.

Also, the camps that I have been to lately encourage double whistles instead of trying to avoid them. Admittedly, the camp is heavily influenced by Women's officials but a lack of a whistle in the lane will prompt the clinician to ask "why didn't you have a whistle on that play?"

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by ronny mulkey

MTD,

Do you also believe that you can't have a "double foul" by rule? The rules committee has decided that the fouls were personal fouls committed against each other. I'm not saying that it is a better rule than the Women's, but the case book play makes it a rule.

Also, the camps that I have been to lately encourage double whistles instead of trying to avoid them. Admittedly, the camp is heavily influenced by Women's officials but a lack of a whistle in the lane will prompt the clinician to ask "why didn't you have a whistle on that play?"

Ronny:

Whoooooooaaaaa Nellllllllllie!!! I have never (with apologies to J. Dallas Shirley) said that one cannot have a DF. Just this year alone, I had a DTF (both Flagrant) and two DPFs and Mark, Jr., had a DPF himself. What I am saying is that by rule it is impossible to have a "blarge".

"blarge" is a combination of two words: "block" and "charge" At this point I should issue a mea culpa: I have limited my musings in this thread to obtaining/establishing a LGP but they also apply not to just Guarding but to Screening as well.

When the Guarding and Screening rules apply and illegal contact occurs, by rule, there can be only one outcome: a block, or a charge, not both.

When the Guarding Rules apply: Either the Defensive Player (B-1) has obtained/established a LGP against an Offensive Player (A-1), or B-1 has not obtained/established a LGP against A-1.

When the Screening Rules apply: Either the Screening Player (B-1, yes defensive players can also set screens) has legally obtained/established a spot on the floor against the Screened Player (A-1), or B-1 has not legally obtained/established a spot on the floor against A-1.

And I will not go on because everybody knows my position about "blarges".

MTD, Sr.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

...
As a student of the rules of the game, it just makes my skin crawl, when I think of how the NFHS and the NCAA Men's committees want us to handle a "blarge". Their solution is not logical; it is not rational; nor can it be defended by rule. And everybody knows how I feel about interpretations that cannot be defended by rule, .

I have a story about a "blarge" that occurred in a boys' H.S. varsity game in Michigan about twenty years ago, but this post has gone on long enough.

MTD, Sr.

Then throw the NBA in there also, since their rules allow for blarges also.

To me, a blarge is nothing more than a double foul, except called by 2 different officials, rather than one. I've only been involved in the one blarge call, and it didn't involve a collision. Dual-coverage area between L & T, T (me) calls a PC for A1 extending arm and pushing off, L calls block for B1 contacting A1 with a knee outside of his normal stance.

[RulesGeek]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

To me, a blarge is nothing more than a double foul, except called by 2 different officials, rather than one.

I'm new here and without nearly the experience of many of the posters, so take that into consideration, but I think MTD's point is that a blarge is NOT a double fou. A double foul is 2 players can simultaneously (or nearly so) making illegal contact to each other. A blarge, however, is a single contact RULED differently by 2 different officials. Either a block occurred; or a PC foul occurred. Not both. One needs to be called. Not both. If a blarge were a "double foul," it COULD be called by one official.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I've only been involved in the one blarge call, and it didn't involve a collision. Dual-coverage area between L & T, T (me) calls a PC for A1 extending arm and pushing off, L calls block for B1 contacting A1 with a knee outside of his normal stance.

That IS a double foul. NOT a blarge. (I think)

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by RulesGeek

I'm new here and without nearly the experience of many of the posters, so take that into consideration, but I think MTD's point is that a blarge is NOT a double fou. A double foul is 2 players can simultaneously (or nearly so) making illegal contact to each other. A blarge, however, is a single contact RULED differently by 2 different officials. Either a block occurred; or a PC foul occurred. Not both. One needs to be called. Not both. If a blarge were a "double foul," it COULD be called by one official.





That IS a double foul. NOT a blarge. (I think)

A blarge is a double foul with one official calling a PC foul, and one calling a block. That's what happened on my play.

[deecee]

My personal feelings are that a BLARGE can not happen. The officials should get together and come to a conclusion on one or the other. Having a blarge IMO is the easy way out. But there is a very specific caseplay with instructions for what to do that must be followed. IMO they got it wrong and should look at the NCAA-W way of handling it.

You cannot have a BLOCK AND a CHARGE on the same play.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Adam

Often? I've had exactly one of these in my career. One. In a summer game.

I've been personally involved in exactly one as well.

I've seen others (mainly JV guys) involved in several a year - most of which were just bad calls.