Throw in BC?

[Terrapins Fan]

I had a strange play tonight, have no idea if I blew it or not. I have different opinions from local refs.

Throw in in FC by team A. B1 jumps over A2 and touches the ball but can not secure the ball, he slaps it and hits A2 in the front of the jersey and rolls into BC. A2 runs into BC and gets the ball. I have BC.

At half time, partner says since no one had control, there was no BC, I understand that, but B1 touched the ball and knocked it off A2 into the BC. I have 2 people in FC touching the ball, I have FC status for the ball. looking at case book 9.9.1D is the closest thing I have.

Thoughts?

[Adam]

No violation. On a throw in, TC only exists for the purposes of determining if bonus free throws should be shot. PC needs to be established in bounds before FC status can be established.

[JetMetFan]

If A2 had caught the ball and brought it into the backcourt then it would have been a violation (i.e., the scenario presented in casebook play 9.9.1D).

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

If A2 had caught the ball and brought it into the backcourt then it would have been a violation (i.e., the scenario presented in casebook play 9.9.1D).

While that is correct, I think it is a bad rule.

I think the backcourt airborne player exception should apply up to and including the first person that catches a ball, not just touches the ball, that is not in control of their team whether it is form a throwin, steal, jump ball, or shot attempt.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

I had a strange play tonight, have no idea if I blew it or not. I have different opinions from local refs.

Throw in in FC by team A. B1 jumps over A2 and touches the ball but can not secure the ball, he slaps it and hits A2 in the front of the jersey and rolls into BC. A2 runs into BC and gets the ball. I have BC.

At half time, partner says since no one had control, there was no BC, I understand that, but B1 touched the ball and knocked it off A2 into the BC. I have 2 people in FC touching the ball, I have FC status for the ball. looking at case book 9.9.1D is the closest thing I have.

Thoughts?

Your partner is correct. When the NFHS extended the definition of team control a couple of seasons ago to include the throw-in, it did so with poor wording and this caused some immediate questions. In response to one of those questions the NFHS issued a clarification that the new team control rule didn't change how backcourt, 3-sec, 5-sec, and ten-sec violations were to be called. It only impacted fouls by the throwing team.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Adam

No violation. On a throw in, TC only exists for the purposes of determining if bonus free throws should be shot. PC needs to be established in bounds before FC status can be established.

Whereas the last sentence above is correct, can we say that that standard applicable only in a throw-in situation?
What bothers me is the way that contradicts 9.1.1.C(a), which happens when A1 in the backcourt passes to A2 in the frontcourt but the pass hits A2 in the back of the head and deflects back to the backcourt where A1 touches it again. That casebook situation says that is a backcourt violation, though PC was not established in the frontcourt.
Is this different because it was not on a throw-in and because the ball hitting A2 established FC status for the ball, thus a backcourt violation?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Adam

No violation. On a throw in, TC only exists for the purposes of determining if bonus free throws should be shot. PC needs to be established in bounds before FC status can be established.

Originally Posted by Freddy

Whereas the last sentence above is correct, can we say that that standard applicable only in a throw-in situation?
What bothers me is the way that contradicts 9.1.1.C(a), which happens when A1 in the backcourt passes to A2 in the frontcourt but the pass hits A2 in the back of the head and deflects back to the backcourt where A1 touches it again. That casebook situation says that is a backcourt violation, though PC was not established in the frontcourt.
Is this different because it was not on a throw-in and because the ball hitting A2 established FC status for the ball, thus a backcourt violation?

PC does not have to be established in the FC, it has to be established inbounds. After PC is established inbounds, BC rules then come into play.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

I had a strange play tonight, have no idea if I blew it or not. I have different opinions from local refs.

Throw in in FC by team A. B1 jumps over A2 and touches the ball but can not secure the ball, he slaps it and hits A2 in the front of the jersey and rolls into BC. A2 runs into BC and gets the ball. I have BC.

At half time, partner says since no one had control, there was no BC, I understand that, but B1 touched the ball and knocked it off A2 into the BC. I have 2 people in FC touching the ball, I have FC status for the ball. looking at case book 9.9.1D is the closest thing I have.

Thoughts?

Remove B1 touching the ball from the situation. We're left with A2 touching the ball in the FC. We know that this is not a violation because A2 didn't secure possession.

Now re-add B1 touching the ball. It would be highly inconsistent, not to mention unfair, that a touch by B (especially an unsuccessful attempt to secure control) would affect the restrictions placed upon A to complete the throw-in. This logic doesn't need to consider the poor wording of the Fed.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Remove B1 touching the ball from the situation. We're left with A2 touching the ball in the FC. We know that this is not a violation because A2 didn't secure possession.

Now re-add B1 touching the ball. It would be highly inconsistent, not to mention unfair, that a touch by B (especially an unsuccessful attempt to secure control) would affect the restrictions placed upon A to complete the throw-in. This logic doesn't need to consider the poor wording of the Fed.

Except that is exactly what they've done if A were to catch the ball coming from a throwin while airborne having jumped from the frontcourt after it is tipped by B.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

I have 2 people in FC touching the ball, I have FC status for the ball.

Thoughts?

This is the part where you missed. 2 people in FC touching the ball does not give the ball FC status.

[MD Longhorn]

PC needs to be established in bounds before FC status can be established.

Originally Posted by Freddy

Whereas the last sentence above is correct, can we say that that standard applicable only in a throw-in situation?
What bothers me is the way that contradicts 9.1.1.C(a), which happens when A1 in the backcourt passes to A2 in the frontcourt but the pass hits A2 in the back of the head and deflects back to the backcourt where A1 touches it again. That casebook situation says that is a backcourt violation, though PC was not established in the frontcourt.
Is this different because it was not on a throw-in and because the ball hitting A2 established FC status for the ball, thus a backcourt violation?

His quote was correct.

It's different... because in your situation PC is established in bounds --- BY A1.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

This is the part where you missed. 2 people in FC touching the ball does not give the ball FC status.

Yes, it does.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Yes, it does.

Huh? So ... you have a BC violation in the OP????

2 people touching it doesn't give the ball FC status until after the ball is possessed in bounds. The ball in the OP has not yet been possessed inbounds - no TC yet... so the touchings don't mean anything.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Huh? So ... you have a BC violation in the OP????

2 people touching it doesn't give the ball FC status until after the ball is possessed in bounds. The ball in the OP has not yet been possessed inbounds - no TC yet... so the touchings don't mean anything.

The ball can have FC status without team control by either team.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Huh? So ... you have a BC violation in the OP????

No, I don't; and that's not what I said.

2 people touching it doesn't give the ball FC status until after the ball is possessed in bounds.

4 things needed.

1) PC inbounds (and then no loss of TC)
2) Ball has FC status
3) A last to touch before ball goes to BC
4) A first to touch after ball goes to BC

(with the throw-in, jump ball and defense exceptions)

The OP has items 2, 3, 4, but not 1.

(And according to the dis-liked FED interp, 3 and 4 can happen at the same time).