Video Request - Syracuse vs Duke (Video)

[Tim Quan]

Here's a question I still have.

I understand about establishing legal guarding position prior to the offensive player having begun his upward motion; but the rules don't say anything about upward motion as it pertains to a defender's ability to MAINTAIN legal guarding position.

Does the defender's rights to lateral motion to maintain LGP end when the shoot or passer begins his upward motion? Or is the upward motion criteria only applicable to when establishing LGP as the rule specifies?

In a nutshell, it seems like you can't slide or jump into LGP when the offensive player is beginning to go airborne, but if you got that LGP early, you can slide or jump into an adjusted position even if the opponent has begun his upward motion. That seems to be a hangup with critics of mine who insist this cannot be true and that the defender has to be committed to his spot by the time the shooter/passer's upwards motion has begun and that he can't make anymore adjustments to his position.

This actually sounds reasonable to me, but it's not specifically in the rule book. What say you all?

Originally Posted by Tim Quan

I understand about establishing legal guarding position prior to the offensive player having begun his upward motion; but the rules don't say anything about upward motion as it pertains to a defender's ability to MAINTAIN legal guarding position.

Does the defender's rights to lateral motion to maintain LGP end when the shoot or passer begins his upward motion? Or is the upward motion criteria only applicable to when establishing LGP as the rule specifies?

I understand your concern. NCAA 4-17-6 has a list of things that a defender can and cannot do once they have LGP.

When it comes to upward motion, the rule assumes that in order to draw a charge, the defender has been in the path, and continues to be in the path of the offensive player. If the defender has LGP but the offensive player changes his/her path (the Euro step for example) and then starts upward motion to shoot or pass, the defender is assumed to have lost LGP due to no longer being in the path. The onus is really on the defender to make those path adjustments and perhaps re-establish LGP before upward motion occurs.

Another example: the LGP requirements in section 4 state that the defender needs both feet on the floor and torso facing the opponent. Then, section 6 says a player that has LGP cannot lose it if they do not have two feet on the floor, or if they no longer face the opponent. In essence, you can't lose attained LGP through anything involving the feet, or turning to absorb contact. There is no such provision for the "path" requirement however. You need to be in the path to establish LGP, but there is nothing in section 6 that says you keep LGP even if you are no longer in the path, with the exception of Article 6d which does give opportunity for a defender to briefly go out of the path and move laterally to maintain. Thus, if the defender is ever out of the path (especially once the offensive player goes airborne), they lose LGP.

Put succinctly: if a defender is ever out of the path of an offensive player, they need to have gotten back into the path before upward motion occurs. If the offensive player keeps dribbling, then LGP is maintained. If the offensive player starts upward motion to shoot or pass, the defender must have gotten back in the path before the gather/upward motion. Otherwise, LGP is lost.

If that is confusing I apologize. I'll keep thinking about how I can explain it better, as I don't fully understand it myself.

[Tim Quan]

Originally Posted by AremRed

If that is confusing I apologize. I'll keep thinking about how I can explain it better, as I don't fully understand it myself.

Yeah, I'm still a little confused by all that.

In a nutshell, I'm just wondering if the "upward motion" of the offensive player has any bearing on a defenders ability to move while "maintaining" legal guarding position (LGP).

In the NCAA rules, the "upward motion" limiting clause is referenced only in 4-17.4 pertaining to the initial establishment of LGP. But in 4-17.6 which governs maintaining LGP, there's no reference to "upward motion" of the offensive player or how it restricts defenders movement after that upward motion has begun.

I've been specifically told by a working official that the defender CAN move or shuffle his feet within the definition of 4-17.6 as long as he isn't the one initiating the contact, such as moving into the opponent with his movement.

But I'm also finding other claimed knowledgeable sources saying that's wrong and that "upward motion" also applies to what the defender can/can't do when maintaining LGP.

Here's some body of unknown credentials (YouTube handle = "Officiating Clips") who states that defender's feet need to be frozen once the offensive player leaves his feet -- he posted this before the rule change so you can insert "begins his upward motion" for that terminology without changing anything regarding his interpretation of the rule.

Block/Charge Quiz (For Men's NCAA prior to rules changes in 2013-2014) - YouTube

Here, he's not making a distinction between establishing and maintaining legal guarding position. I'm trending down the path of believing that if you've already established legal guarding position, you can shuffle your feet to maintain it even if the opposing player has begun his upward motion. No?