A bit of a mess at an Indiana HS game

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Plus, what exactly would you have done that the officials didn't?

1) two of the officials are wearing belts
2) C is leaning side to side during transition
3) neither L nor T close down when W43 pushes off with her arm, or when G2 begins to advance on her
4) neither L or T attempt to separate the players, instead they stand back and just put their arms in the air
5) L ejects the girl and keeps his arm in the air for 35 seconds while ignoring anything else he should be taking care of
6) C allows the woman in the neon green shirt to come on the floor and grab G2
7) none of the officials send the players to their benches
8) none of the officials notice two opposing coaches confronting each other until too late, twice
9) none of the coaches involved in the confrontation are issued technicals, hopefully they were teched later
10) dude in plaid green shirt is allowed to wander all over the court from 0:17 on (could be off-duty cop, def not game admin)
11) the coaches again confront each other, with an official standing right there not doing anything. Nothing productive can come from this.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Two of the officials are wearing belts.

Agree. If those two officials were not wearing belts, then the knockout punch, and its aftermath, would never have occurred. See what happens when officials try to hold their pants up. The horror.

[JetMetFan]

*Maybe* if one of the officials had come in with a little urgency after White #13 shoved Green #2 following Green #2’s foul they could’ve stopped the punch but that’s a maybe given there was a second – maybe two – between the shove and the punch. Cosmetically it would’ve looked better, especially since the T was in frame as the punch took place.

The line from the story “That prompted coaches, referees, and other adults to rush the court before things got out of hand” is a bit of a stretch. No one seemed to be moving too fast to break things up. I haven’t been in many fight situations – three in 20+ years, including one this season – but they generally involve a heck of a lot more running and panic than this one.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree. If those two officials were not wearing belts, then the knockout punch, and its aftermath, would never have occurred. See what happens when officials try to hold their pants up. The horror.

You may not care, but the second I see an official wearing a belt, my perception of them changes in a negative way. Period. I have never seen a top notch official wearing a belt at the HS or college level. (At least not since the early 1990s.)

You can keep on bragging about your belt all you like and the fact that they're still OK in CT (where you work zero 3-person, which is another indicator for me on the state of officiating in CT), but all this does is make me think that CT is even further behind the curve than where I live. Which is, in some ways, pretty hard since we're still working way too much 2-person for my liking.

Now, as for the play. Both are getting ejected. I'd have a technical foul on the initial shove by white and this started a fight. wouldn't even be a second thought in my mind. I also like to think that on the shove we're closing quickly and maybe with a strong whistle or two that punch doesn't happen.

The dead ball officiating (especially the baseball ejection mechanic by the guy with his shirt coming out of his pants and his standing over the injured player with his hand in the air) doesn't impress me a bit. Another official turns his eyes away form the court and the other players still there and doesn't seem to urgent about the entire situation. Those three officials need to become very well seen and the center of attention at that point and that just doesn't happen.

This whole thread is just a reminder that things like this can come from anywhere at any time and we need to be ready. Even in a girls game.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich

You may not care, but the second I see an official wearing a belt, my perception of them changes in a negative way. Period. I have never seen a top notch official wearing a belt at the HS or college level. You can keep on bragging about your belt all you like and the fact that they're still OK in CT (where you work zero 3-person, which is another indicator for me on the state of officiating in CT), but all this does is make me think that CT is even further behind the curve than where I live.

I'm not bragging. I'm commenting on how some Forum members are open to the old "When in Rome ..." credo, while others aren't. I'm totally against the "When in Texas" concept of sounding one's whistle before entering the court to warn players to stop dunking. I would view it as silly here in Connecticut. However, I would never question that this is the right thing to do in Texas. I'm pretty certain that very good high school varsity officials, in many parts of the country, don't shower after the game, but simply leave in uniform. That's fine for those other parts of the country, but it would be considered a major faux pas here in Connecticut, enough to slow down one's movement up the officiating ladder.

Belts are allowed here in Connecticut. Period. Belts are neither encouraged, nor are they discouraged. Period. This is how our cadets are trained. Whether one wears beltless slacks, or one wears a belt, has absolutely no bearing on one's rating, ranking, the level games one gets assigned, the number of games one gets assigned, or whether, or not, one "makes" the state tournament list. Period. Are you accusing me of lying?

Originally Posted by Rich

I have never seen a top notch official wearing a belt at the HS level.

Then you certainly haven't seen our top Connecticut officials working games. Most don't wear belts, a few veterans do. I would never discuss the quality of your officials until I have actually seen them work games. If you were to tell me that some of your top officials work games wearing shoes with quite a bit of white on them, I would never prejudge them to be poor officials, until I actually observed them work games. Wearing all black shoes does not necessarily make a great official, especially in regions where shoes with some white on them may be neither encouraged, nor may they be discouraged.

Regarding three person games. The winningest coaches in the state, those that play an up tempo, defensively oriented, man to man defense, full court press, style of basketball, don't want a third official. Period. They believe that it will lead to more fouls, more free throws, more players in foul trouble, and fewer wins for them. These guys are the leaders of the Connecticut Coaches Association, a very strong organization here in the state. They strongly lobby our state interscholastic sports governing body to not move to three person games. Our state interscholastic sports governing body listens to these coaches, and their organization. Officials want to go to three person games. Many coaches want to go to three person games. A minority of vocal coaches, leading a very strong lobbying organization, don't, so we don't.

[maroonx]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree. If those two officials were not wearing belts, then the knockout punch, and its aftermath, would never have occurred. See what happens when officials try to hold their pants up. The horror.

And I might add, belts were not working for one ref who had a fat stomach and his shirt was not tucked in. Ugh!!!! Nasty looking

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by AremRed

4) neither L or T attempt to separate the players...

To my understanding this is discouraged anyhow.
Am I correct? Or am I in need of enlightenment?

Maybe now so many girls in the area won't want to try to wear those Skylar Diggins headthingies with the tails flopping five inches below the knot.
Naw, they still will.

Originally Posted by Freddy

To my understanding this is discouraged anyhow.
Am I correct? Or am I in need of enlightenment?

I'm not sure about the basketball direction, most of my confrontation training comes from soccer. The theory there is to "be the 3rd man in". If the officials are the 3rd person on the scene after the original two players then most of the other players won't try to retaliate. In this situation getting in the area and immediately sending the players to their benches would be best. Certainly one official should hang back and collect player numbers/monitor the benches but the other two officials should be in the middle right away.

[Adam]

Once the coaches started engaging each other rather than their players, they're all done.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I'm not sure about the basketball direction, most of my confrontation training comes from soccer. The theory there is to "be the 3rd man in". If the officials are the 3rd person on the scene after the original two players then most of the other players won't try to retaliate. In this situation getting in the area and immediately sending the players to their benches would be best. Certainly one official should hang back and collect player numbers/monitor the benches but the other two officials should be in the middle right away.

I think basketball fights are a bit different than soccer fights . Less faking maybe .

If things escalate I can guarantee you the "3rd man in" won't change anything.

Originally Posted by deecee

I think basketball fights are a bit different than soccer fights . Less faking maybe .

If things escalate I can guarantee you the "3rd man in" won't change anything.

When soccer players fight, they fight. The flopping happens when they are playing :P

I know I was nitpicking with the belt and leaning thing but Camron asked me "exactly would you have done that the officials didn't?". I wanted to list everything I saw. Take it or leave it.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

As deecee said, over half of those points are irrelevant, unreasonable, guesses, or just wrong. You got a 2-3 of them right however. Makes it look more like you just want to bust their chops from your armchair than have a serious commentary.

I said I didn't like a single thing the refs did, which after 10 viewings I still don't. You asked me exactly why, and I answered. I didn't list those things until you asked, and I think that proves I'm not just out to bust chops. I listed everything I saw; if you think those thing are irrelevant or guesses, fine. I'm willing to have a "serious commentary" if you like, I think everything I listed was something I would do differently.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by AremRed

1) two of the officials are wearing belts - are you serious? see Billy's response
2) C is leaning side to side during transition - Leaning isn't allowed in your area?
3) neither L nor T close down when W43 pushes off with her arm, or when G2 begins to advance on her - This all happened pretty quick. I don't think Usein Bolt would have made this either.
4) neither L or T attempt to separate the players, instead they stand back and just put their arms in the air - In most HS games, if a scrum erupts my partner(s) and I just stand back and observe. Let "game management" break things up. At best you can have one official try to slow things down but beyond these 2 knuckleheads there wasn't anything else from the players.
5) L ejects the girl and keeps his arm in the air for 35 seconds while ignoring anything else he should be taking care of - First of your points I can agree with.
6) C allows the woman in the neon green shirt to come on the floor and grab G2 - Should the C have tackled her?
7) none of the officials send the players to their benches - I agree
8) none of the officials notice two opposing coaches confronting each other until too late, twice - Agree here too
9) none of the coaches involved in the confrontation are issued technicals, hopefully they were tech'd later
10) dude in plaid green shirt is allowed to wander all over the court from 0:17 on (could be off-duty cop, def not game admin) - How do you know this?
11) the coaches again confront each other, with an official standing right there not doing anything. Nothing productive can come from this. - Maybe they were making plans for the teams to have a group dinner after the game? You seem to know a lot of what went on the court...

See my response's above.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by AremRed

1) two of the officials are wearing belts
2) C is leaning side to side during transition
3) neither L nor T close down when W43 pushes off with her arm, or when G2 begins to advance on her
4) neither L or T attempt to separate the players, instead they stand back and just put their arms in the air
5) L ejects the girl and keeps his arm in the air for 35 seconds while ignoring anything else he should be taking care of
6) C allows the woman in the neon green shirt to come on the floor and grab G2
7) none of the officials send the players to their benches
8) none of the officials notice two opposing coaches confronting each other until too late, twice
9) none of the coaches involved in the confrontation are issued technicals, hopefully they were teched later
10) dude in plaid green shirt is allowed to wander all over the court from 0:17 on (could be off-duty cop, def not game admin)
11) the coaches again confront each other, with an official standing right there not doing anything. Nothing productive can come from this.

As deecee said, over half of those points are irrelevant, unreasonable, guesses, or just wrong. You got a few of them right however (5,7,8, and 11). But then again, you don't know if they were using their voices or not on most of those. Maybe they had too many situations that drew their attention to catch all of them. Makes it look more like you just want to bust their chops from your armchair than have a serious commentary.