Administrative Technicals

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

You do know what a double foul is, right? Let's say for example, A3 and B3 early in the game are pulling and grabbing each other, and you blow the whistle, and issue a foul to each. The table tells you that neither are in the book. What would you do? If anyone else reading this knows what he would do because it's obvious if you've been paying attention - then please tell me. Thanks.

You are right I have no idea what a double foul is. Yep, no idea.

I WOULD PENALIZE THE T OF THE TEAM THAT WAS DISCOVERED FIRST and then PENALIZE THE SECOND DISCOVERY SECOND (You know the order in which they took place, THEN GIVE THE BALL AT HALF COURT TO THE SECOND TEAM OFFENDED. THAT WOULD BE THE POINT OF INTERRUPTION AFTER THE DOUBLE FOUL!!!!

Does that answer your question?

Peace

[Coach Bill]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You are right I have no idea what a double foul is. Yep, no idea.

I WOULD PENALIZE THE T OF THE TEAM THAT WAS DISCOVERED FIRST and then PENALIZE THE SECOND DISCOVERY SECOND (You know the order in which they took place, THEN GIVE THE BALL AT HALF COURT TO THE SECOND TEAM OFFENDED. THAT WOULD BE THE POINT OF INTERRUPTION AFTER THE DOUBLE FOUL!!!!

Does that answer your question?

Peace

Yes. Was that so hard? If two guys were simultaneously pulling and grabbing each other, such that you call a double foul, I'm glad to hear you are always able to tell who grabbed and pulled first.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

Yes. Was that so hard? If two guys were simultaneously pulling and grabbing each other, such that you call a double foul, I'm glad to hear you are always able to tell who grabbed and pulled first.

I thought it was self explanatory if you know that I feel you cannot have a double foul on these situation (and there is no support anyone can show me or I can find). Maybe you do not understand the rules or definitions that apply. If it is not a double foul, then you administer Ts in the order of their occurrence. That is pretty basic stuff man.

BTW, I was taught to call the first foul, not to get in a habit of calling double fouls on players. It has been said at camps to be a cop out. Call the first foul and the second foul does not happen. You know the similar reason you see hardly anyone advocate calling a multiple foul as one took place first.

Peace

[Coach Bill]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I thought it was self explanatory if you know that I feel you cannot have a double foul on these situation (and there is no support anyone can show me or I can find). Maybe you do not understand the rules or definitions that apply. If it is not a double foul, then you administer Ts in the order of their occurrence. That is pretty basic stuff man.

BTW, I was taught to call the first foul, not to get in a habit of calling double fouls on players. It has been said at camps to be a cop out. Call the first foul and the second foul does not happen. You know the similar reason you see hardly anyone advocate calling a multiple foul as one took place first.

Peace

I am fully aware of the basic stuff and administering T's in order of occurrence. I never mentioned that, never asked a question about that, not sure why you keep bringing it up. I'm talking about double "personal" fouls.

I agree the double foul can sometimes be a cop out, but sometimes an official (not you) missed the first contact. And, although you've never called one, and never will, I've seen other officials call them. I was wondering what should happen if neither of the offenders were in the book in this situation. I mistakenly thought you may have called one of those, or in the future call one and, wanted to know how you'd handle it.

Because, in that case, it seems whichever team and number happens to be given to the table last, gets screwed. And, that doesn't seem fair.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

I am fully aware of the basic stuff and administering T's in order of occurrence. I never mentioned that, never asked a question about that, not sure why you keep bringing it up. I'm talking about double "personal" fouls.

OK, but isn't this topic about Administrative Technicals? If you want to start a topic about double fouls, then you might want to make that clearer.

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

I agree the double foul can sometimes be a cop out, but sometimes an official (not you) missed the first contact. And, although you've never called one, and never will, I've seen other officials call them. I was wondering what should happen if neither of the offenders were in the book in this situation. I mistakenly thought you may have called one of those, or in the future call one and, wanted to know how you'd handle it.

If you miss the first contact, why not just call the "second" contact first? And I have called a double foul, but was taught not to call them some time ago. I was actually at a camp before John Adams was the Supervisor for the NCAA to not call double fouls. He would say, "If you miss the first contact, miss the second contact and call the third contact." I also teach officials in camps not to call double fouls and get the first contact and call that instead of a double foul. Usually the second contact is a result of us not calling what first happen. And usually since you see a lot of double fouls called on post play, the NCAA for example usually illustrates how the first contact should be called and you would not have a second foul.

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

Because, in that case, it seems whichever team and number happens to be given to the table last, gets screwed. And, that doesn't seem fair.

Life is not fair and the rules are not always "fair." And like JAR stated this is very rare when you consider the chances are the minute a player comes into the game, it would be discovered that player was not in the book by someone (opponents often keep their own book as well). I doubt seriously that someone would not be screaming that someone was not in the book. But if it falls through the cracks, then I would do what I said before. If the rules makers want to make this situation easier, they can change the rule or give and interpretation to suggest exactly how they want this to be administered. Since they have not done that at this time and I doubt that will happen soon, it will be up to the officials that are on the game in question.

Peace

[Coach Bill]

[QUOTE=JRutledge;914679]OK, but isn't this topic about Administrative Technicals? If you want to start a topic about double fouls, then you might want to make that clearer.

You mean like when i wrote this about 5 posts ago:

"I'm talking about what you would do if you called a double-foul on two guys that neither happened to be in the book (i.e., a situation dif from OP)."

And, no, I don't want to start a topic on double fouls. It was relevant to the thread because guys were coming up with scenarios where Administrative T's were simultaneous. And, I thought this qualified. Double foul on two separate offenders both aren't in the book. Which I think, is an Admin. T on both teams at the same time. I know, rare. I know probably never happen. But, just in case, was wondering what do you do? I like JAR's answer - put em in, and play on. Anything else, seems like someone is gaining an advantage not intended by the rules.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

"I'm talking about what you would do if you called a double-foul on two guys that neither happened to be in the book (i.e., a situation dif from OP)."

I guess I assumed that you were talking about the topic related to Administrative Ts and it appears I was not alone in that assumption as you were given an answer by someone else related to your question and an Administrative T.

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

And, no, I don't want to start a topic on double fouls. It was relevant to the thread because guys were coming up with scenarios where Administrative T's were simultaneous. And, I thought this qualified. Double foul on two separate offenders both aren't in the book. Which I think, is an Admin. T on both teams at the same time. I know, rare. I know probably never happen. But, just in case, was wondering what do you do? I like JAR's answer - put em in, and play on. Anything else, seems like someone is gaining an advantage not intended by the rules.

I did not see many guys coming up with different scenarios. And only one person talked about them being simultaneous.

Since this seems to be hard for you, here is the definition of a double foul in Rule 4-19-8a: "A double personal foul is a situation in which two opponents commits personal fouls against each other at approximately the same time."

A blarge is a double foul (can be avoided) and some might consider a situation with a fight as a double foul.

And you can like JAR's position, but that does not make it right or the way the rule should be handled. If a player is not in the book, it is a technical foul. And I know if I was called to the carpet, I would not want to use that usage of 2-3 to apply here. If you put the players in the game and not give a T, you are giving someone an advantage as well or you certainly might have a coach that feels they are disadvantaged. Again that is just an opinion, but one I am comfortable with.

Peace