Administrative Technicals

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

Yes. Was that so hard? If two guys were simultaneously pulling and grabbing each other, such that you call a double foul, I'm glad to hear you are always able to tell who grabbed and pulled first.

I thought it was self explanatory if you know that I feel you cannot have a double foul on these situation (and there is no support anyone can show me or I can find). Maybe you do not understand the rules or definitions that apply. If it is not a double foul, then you administer Ts in the order of their occurrence. That is pretty basic stuff man.

BTW, I was taught to call the first foul, not to get in a habit of calling double fouls on players. It has been said at camps to be a cop out. Call the first foul and the second foul does not happen. You know the similar reason you see hardly anyone advocate calling a multiple foul as one took place first.

Peace

[Coach Bill]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I thought it was self explanatory if you know that I feel you cannot have a double foul on these situation (and there is no support anyone can show me or I can find). Maybe you do not understand the rules or definitions that apply. If it is not a double foul, then you administer Ts in the order of their occurrence. That is pretty basic stuff man.

BTW, I was taught to call the first foul, not to get in a habit of calling double fouls on players. It has been said at camps to be a cop out. Call the first foul and the second foul does not happen. You know the similar reason you see hardly anyone advocate calling a multiple foul as one took place first.

Peace

I am fully aware of the basic stuff and administering T's in order of occurrence. I never mentioned that, never asked a question about that, not sure why you keep bringing it up. I'm talking about double "personal" fouls.

I agree the double foul can sometimes be a cop out, but sometimes an official (not you) missed the first contact. And, although you've never called one, and never will, I've seen other officials call them. I was wondering what should happen if neither of the offenders were in the book in this situation. I mistakenly thought you may have called one of those, or in the future call one and, wanted to know how you'd handle it.

Because, in that case, it seems whichever team and number happens to be given to the table last, gets screwed. And, that doesn't seem fair.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

I am fully aware of the basic stuff and administering T's in order of occurrence. I never mentioned that, never asked a question about that, not sure why you keep bringing it up. I'm talking about double "personal" fouls.

OK, but isn't this topic about Administrative Technicals? If you want to start a topic about double fouls, then you might want to make that clearer.

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

I agree the double foul can sometimes be a cop out, but sometimes an official (not you) missed the first contact. And, although you've never called one, and never will, I've seen other officials call them. I was wondering what should happen if neither of the offenders were in the book in this situation. I mistakenly thought you may have called one of those, or in the future call one and, wanted to know how you'd handle it.

If you miss the first contact, why not just call the "second" contact first? And I have called a double foul, but was taught not to call them some time ago. I was actually at a camp before John Adams was the Supervisor for the NCAA to not call double fouls. He would say, "If you miss the first contact, miss the second contact and call the third contact." I also teach officials in camps not to call double fouls and get the first contact and call that instead of a double foul. Usually the second contact is a result of us not calling what first happen. And usually since you see a lot of double fouls called on post play, the NCAA for example usually illustrates how the first contact should be called and you would not have a second foul.

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

Because, in that case, it seems whichever team and number happens to be given to the table last, gets screwed. And, that doesn't seem fair.

Life is not fair and the rules are not always "fair." And like JAR stated this is very rare when you consider the chances are the minute a player comes into the game, it would be discovered that player was not in the book by someone (opponents often keep their own book as well). I doubt seriously that someone would not be screaming that someone was not in the book. But if it falls through the cracks, then I would do what I said before. If the rules makers want to make this situation easier, they can change the rule or give and interpretation to suggest exactly how they want this to be administered. Since they have not done that at this time and I doubt that will happen soon, it will be up to the officials that are on the game in question.

Peace

[Coach Bill]

[QUOTE=JRutledge;914679]OK, but isn't this topic about Administrative Technicals? If you want to start a topic about double fouls, then you might want to make that clearer.

You mean like when i wrote this about 5 posts ago:

"I'm talking about what you would do if you called a double-foul on two guys that neither happened to be in the book (i.e., a situation dif from OP)."

And, no, I don't want to start a topic on double fouls. It was relevant to the thread because guys were coming up with scenarios where Administrative T's were simultaneous. And, I thought this qualified. Double foul on two separate offenders both aren't in the book. Which I think, is an Admin. T on both teams at the same time. I know, rare. I know probably never happen. But, just in case, was wondering what do you do? I like JAR's answer - put em in, and play on. Anything else, seems like someone is gaining an advantage not intended by the rules.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

"I'm talking about what you would do if you called a double-foul on two guys that neither happened to be in the book (i.e., a situation dif from OP)."

I guess I assumed that you were talking about the topic related to Administrative Ts and it appears I was not alone in that assumption as you were given an answer by someone else related to your question and an Administrative T.

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

And, no, I don't want to start a topic on double fouls. It was relevant to the thread because guys were coming up with scenarios where Administrative T's were simultaneous. And, I thought this qualified. Double foul on two separate offenders both aren't in the book. Which I think, is an Admin. T on both teams at the same time. I know, rare. I know probably never happen. But, just in case, was wondering what do you do? I like JAR's answer - put em in, and play on. Anything else, seems like someone is gaining an advantage not intended by the rules.

I did not see many guys coming up with different scenarios. And only one person talked about them being simultaneous.

Since this seems to be hard for you, here is the definition of a double foul in Rule 4-19-8a: "A double personal foul is a situation in which two opponents commits personal fouls against each other at approximately the same time."

A blarge is a double foul (can be avoided) and some might consider a situation with a fight as a double foul.

And you can like JAR's position, but that does not make it right or the way the rule should be handled. If a player is not in the book, it is a technical foul. And I know if I was called to the carpet, I would not want to use that usage of 2-3 to apply here. If you put the players in the game and not give a T, you are giving someone an advantage as well or you certainly might have a coach that feels they are disadvantaged. Again that is just an opinion, but one I am comfortable with.

Peace

[just another ref]

I think everyone agrees that double foul would not apply here. But rather look at the definition of simultaneous foul. It contains the word approximately. Let's look at a couple of things that actually might happen. Both teams fail to submit their rosters on time, or both leave a player off or change a starter for some reason. As far as I'm concerned, the whole 10 minutes before the start of the game would qualify as "approximately the same time."

Play on.

Just reread the OP. That is also "approximately the same time" in my book.

[SuperXYZ]

play on sounds good. no clear cut on that ruling. but if im not mistaking the players have to check in at the table before coming in to the game and should be found out there but if not, the chances of two players getting into the game to be in the double foul situation then you need a new book keeper. lol

[Coach Bill]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I guess I assumed that you were talking about the topic related to Administrative Ts and it appears I was not alone in that assumption as you were given an answer by someone else related to your question and an Administrative T.

No - actually, you were alone. JAR understood the question and answered it. He knew when I said double foul I was talking about Rule 4-19-8a. You know the one where it has the definition of what a double foul is?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Since this seems to be hard for you, here is the definition of a double foul in Rule 4-19-8a: "A double personal foul is a situation in which two opponents commits personal fouls against each other at approximately the same time."

Doesn't seem hard to me at all. It's exactly what I'm talking about and everyone (JAR, Camron, Bob) understood except you. It seems hard to you. because it was a very simple question: "double foul, both players discovered at that time not to be in the book. What's the call?" Sounds like Bob has the rulebook answer.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

No - actually, you were alone. JAR understood the question and answered it. He knew when I said double foul I was talking about Rule 4-19-8a. You know the one where it has the definition of what a double foul is?




Doesn't seem hard to me at all. It's exactly what I'm talking about and everyone (JAR, Camron, Bob) understood except you. It seems hard to you. because it was a very simple question: "double foul, both players discovered at that time not to be in the book. What's the call?" Sounds like Bob has the rulebook answer.

Don't take it personally.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

No - actually, you were alone. JAR understood the question and answered it. He knew when I said double foul I was talking about Rule 4-19-8a. You know the one where it has the definition of what a double foul is?




Doesn't seem hard to me at all. It's exactly what I'm talking about and everyone (JAR, Camron, Bob) understood except you. It seems hard to you. because it was a very simple question: "double foul, both players discovered at that time not to be in the book. What's the call?" Sounds like Bob has the rulebook answer.

I will say it to you this way. If that happens, a lot of people dropped the ball. For one if not one, but two players came into the game and we go several minutes without knowing a player's numbers or information is not listed, we have bigger issues. Then those two players happened to commit a double foul, then we have figure out what to do? I am sorry, but that is unlikely where I live for a lot of reasons. For one it is common that both teams keep track of their own books. So someone would be screaming that we have to give a T for one or the other. There would have to be a huge breakdown for this to even happen. But I guess some people on this site have to worry about things. Whatever happen with calling basic fouls and violations? There are officials and coaches cannot understand that fact, but worry about these unusual situations that if they happen will be a first.

Peace