What Are You Gonna Do?

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

This has NOTHING to do with that. You seem to assume that directly behind the shooter is some magical intimidation spot that means some snarkiness is about to happen.

I have NEVER (not once... not ever) had a player go there for some sort of message - nor had someone standing there that caused the shooter to react.

I've never had anything close to this scenario, and likely never will either, but I don't think we're responding to something that actually happened, we're responding to a hypothetical (which is like half of the posts in this forum). But the fact that it is a rivalry game and things are heated IS RELEVANT!!! If its any other T in any other game, then your radar isn't up, and a kid standing there seems odd, but whatever. But if you know that there is or might be some bad blood, are you telling me you're not going to pay attention to it more?? You may not act any differently, but you're certainly going to be more tuned in.

So in that situation, I can't see a situation where I don't at least try to get him to move, if for no other reason to put everyone else in that gym at ease.

"The Only Thing Necessary For the Triumph of Evil, Is For Good Men To Do Nothing." -Edmund Burke Haha, I'm kidding, that's a little extreme!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by frezer11

I've never had anything close to this scenario, and likely never will either, but I don't think we're responding to something that actually happened, we're responding to a hypothetical (which is like half of the posts in this forum). But the fact that it is a rivalry game and things are heated IS RELEVANT!!! If its any other T in any other game, then your radar isn't up, and a kid standing there seems odd, but whatever. But if you know that there is or might be some bad blood, are you telling me you're not going to pay attention to it more?? You may not act any differently, but you're certainly going to be more tuned in.

So in that situation, I can't see a situation where I don't at least try to get him to move, if for no other reason to put everyone else in that gym at ease.

"The Only Thing Necessary For the Triumph of Evil, Is For Good Men To Do Nothing." -Edmund Burke Haha, I'm kidding, that's a little extreme!

I have been in enough rivalry situations in my career. Nothing is necessarily special about those situations as opposed to many non-conference games between top teams. All rivalry games are not made the same either. I think you are making more out of the rivalry part of this discussion. It does not mean that most of us would completely ignore the situation. But nothing in the rules disallows the player to stand there. And if that bothers the shooter, than what are they going to do in an normal FT situation where the rules for anyone on the lane are the same? Are we in those situations going to get all excited over a player standing behind the FT shooter, properly behind the 3 point line? Now if they are saying something, that is different. And like stated when they do they are quickly on a road to a technical foul. But until that happens, I am not going to over-officiate the situation just to prevent something because of where someone can legally stand. You are not talking to a bunch of rookies about this situation.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by frezer11

...are you telling me you're not going to pay attention to it more?? You may not act any differently, but you're certainly going to be more tuned in.

So in that situation, I can't see a situation where I don't at least try to get him to move, if for no other reason to put everyone else in that gym at ease.
...

Who said anything about not paying attention? There is a world of difference between paying attention and trying make a player move from a spot he is entitled to stand on.

If he does or says anything while standing on that spot, then T the kid up and move on. Personally, I would rather have him standing there by himself, than standing in a group at the division line where players seem to congregate. I'm more worried about something sparking up between interacting opponents, not some kid standing all by himself.

[Remington]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Let me put it this way. My late father was a carpenter for 53 years and I am a retired structural design engineer and worked my way through engineering school as a construction worker. Meaning if you have straight hair, I can verbally curl it; if you have curly hair I can verbally straighten it, because I have been on construction sites all of my life and you get us to the crude language that is sometimes heard on construction sites. You get my drift.

That said, the F-word is an automatic FTF when I am calling JrHS, HS, college, and youth basketball games. That has been my position for the 43 years that I have officiated basketball and the soon to be 22 years of umpiring HS and youth baseball and fast pitch softball.

MTD, Sr.

I have been a commercial lender for over a decade and am on construction sites and deal with contractors on a daily basis so I completely understand the language. Maybe that is why I am not as taken back by the use of the F word to the point of calling a FTF and an ejection. It is always a TF in my games, but the ejection seems extreme in most realistic scenerios to me. I'm not saying you are in anyway wrong, I just wanted to hear your rationale. Thank you for the insight.

[NCHSAA]

Great thoughts and discussions. Thanks!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Remington

I have been a commercial lender for over a decade and am on construction sites and deal with contractors on a daily basis so I completely understand the language. Maybe that is why I am not as taken back by the use of the F word to the point of calling a FTF and an ejection. It is always a TF in my games, but the ejection seems extreme in most realistic scenerios to me. I'm not saying you are in anyway wrong, I just wanted to hear your rationale. Thank you for the insight.

If a player says "F you!" to an opponent (or me), I'm probably going flagrant.
Most other F-bombs will be a regular T.
A few will just get a quick word from the ref with rabbit ears (me).

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Adam

If a player says "F you!" to an opponent (or me), I'm probably going flagrant.
Most other F-bombs will be a regular T.
A few will just get a quick word from the ref with rabbit ears (me).

I take this stance for the most part. I live in a metropolitan area where colorful language is often used by more than the participants of a game. If any language is directed towards me or a partner, they are treading on thin ice, but that has never happened to me in that fashion. Comments amongst teammates, I might have a "talk to" if it is relatively quiet or not very loud. But any action where it is heard by everyone outside of an injury, I am likely going to penalize. I have yet to ever hear something that I felt was flagrant on its own when it comes to language. Maybe that day will come, it just has not happened yet.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I take this stance for the most part. I live in a metropolitan area where colorful language is often used by more than the participants of a game. If any language is directed towards me or a partner, they are treading on thin ice, but that has never happened to me in that fashion. Comments amongst teammates, I might have a "talk to" if it is relatively quiet or not very loud. But any action where it is heard by everyone outside of an injury, I am likely going to penalize. I have yet to ever hear something that I felt was flagrant on its own when it comes to language. Maybe that day will come, it just has not happened yet.

Peace

I have, but it was in a football game.

It was not the F-bomb, though.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Adam

I have, but it was in a football game.

It was not the F-bomb, though.

In a football game I am much more tolerant of bad language as most people have no idea what is said in the middle of the field. And that also means my tone can be very different as well, without the bad language of course.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

In a football game I am much more tolerant of bad language as most people have no idea what is said in the middle of the field. And that also means my tone can be very different as well, without the bad language of course.

Peace

I am, too. This was not a case where tolerance was prudent; I'll leave it at that.

[BryanV21]

This situations seems pretty obvious. There is nothing in the rules that states the defender can't stand there, so you allow it. BUT make sure to pay attention for foul play.

If the coach says something about the player being there, then politely tell him/her "I understand the concern, but unfortunately there is nothing in the rule book that prevents the defender from standing in that spot. But I assure you, I'll make sure there isn't any foul play here."

Personally, I'm a fan of preventative officiating (such as talking to the players who are close to violations like three seconds), so I completely understand wanting to do something to get the defender out of there. But let's not put ourselves in situations that aren't backed up by the rules, and therefore could lead to more problems.

One person earlier in this thread said that if the defender does say something, award the offense another free throw. The place that hurts a team the most is on the scoreboard, so if you affect that then you're probably all good.

BTW, if the defender is out of hand with his words to the shooter, then give him a tech for taunting. I can't imagine giving the other team another free throw, as well as a tech against them, isn't going to help clean things up.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

This situations seems pretty obvious. There is nothing in the rules that states the defender can't stand there, so you allow it. BUT make sure to pay attention for foul play.

If the coach says something about the player being there, then politely tell him/her "I understand the concern, but unfortunately there is nothing in the rule book that prevents the defender from standing in that spot. But I assure you, I'll make sure there isn't any foul play here."

I'd leave out the "unfortunately", but it's essentially what I'd tell him.

"By rule, he's allowed to stand there; but I'm watching him."

If he persists, "Coach, we know things are tense. I need you to keep an eye on your players. Just know we're watching."

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Adam

I'd leave out the "unfortunately", but it's essentially what I'd tell him.

"By rule, he's allowed to stand there; but I'm watching him."

If he persists, "Coach, we know things are tense. I need you to keep an eye on your players. Just know we're watching."

Nice

[refiator]

Originally Posted by OrStBballRef

I'd watch to make sure he doesn't disconcert the shooter, but that's all....

That's it. Nada.