Questioning Partner's Call

[Coach Bill]

I'm a former ref and a current coach. I am on the side of getting the call right. I really appreciate when officials confer regardless if the call is changed or not. I think it shows professionalism, teamwork, and a genuine concern for the integrity of the game. In my experience, those willing to ask/listen for/to help are usually the best refs. They are confident enough in their abilities that their ego isn't involved.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

I'm a former ref and a current coach. I am on the side of getting the call right. I really appreciate when officials confer regardless if the call is changed or not. I think it shows professionalism, teamwork, and a genuine concern for the integrity of the game. In my experience, those willing to ask/listen for/to help are usually the best refs. They are confident enough in their abilities that their ego isn't involved.

It does not have anything to do with professionalism. Not every call is up for debate. And that is the point of most people here. That is why we have primary coverage areas. In this case we have an official almost completely out of position to know what is called or if a violation took place in most cases. It is really not about ego, but knowing your job. And if you are seeing a backcourt violation when you are no where near the division line, that tells me you are not watching your responsibities. There are so many times things happen as an official somewhere else on the court I have absolutely no idea what my partner called. And unless you have definite information, then honestly there is no reason to confer.

Peace

[Coach Bill]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It does not have anything to do with professionalism. Not every call is up for debate. And that is the point of most people here. That is why we have primary coverage areas. In this case we have an official almost completely out of position to know what is called or if a violation took place in most cases. It is really not about ego, but knowing your job. And if you are seeing a backcourt violation when you are no where near the division line, that tells me you are not watching your responsibities. There are so many times things happen as an official somewhere else on the court I have absolutely no idea what my partner called. And unless you have definite information, then honestly there is no reason to confer.

Peace

I agree with almost everything you said. I concur - not everything is up for debate, and if you don't have definite info then no reason to confer. I don't know if this situation calls for help or not. I wasn't there. The MSU game video shows the officials conferred on a backcourt violation and got the call right. Was that done by a person looking outside his area? I don't know but it was handled professionally. Sounds like Afrosheen didn't have "definite" info and thus apologized later. So, probably not a sitch to confer. But, I gotta disagree that you think it has nothing to do with professionalism. E.g., if you see a ball tipped prior to going out of bounds, that your partner didn't, and he's about to give the ball to the wrong team, i think you have a professional responsibility to confer. His choice to change it...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

I agree with almost everything you said. I concur - not everything is up for debate, and if you don't have definite info then no reason to confer. I don't know if this situation calls for help or not. I wasn't there. The MSU game video shows the officials conferred on a backcourt violation and got the call right.

I am not sure which MSU game you are referring to, but the one I can think of where they were in Ann Arbor, the call was not changed. And it was not changed because the calling official saw the entire play and ruled a dribble took place (I might have to post the video).

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

Was that done by a person looking outside his area? I don't know but it was handled professionally. Sounds like Afrosheen didn't have "definite" info and thus apologized later. So, probably not a sitch to confer. But, I gotta disagree that you think it has nothing to do with professionalism. E.g., if you see a ball tipped prior to going out of bounds, that your partner didn't, and he's about to give the ball to the wrong team, i think you have a professional responsibility to confer. His choice to change it...

I guess I am missing the "professionalism" angle you are taking here. I do not see talking to each other or not talking to each other less or more professional. Whether we discuss a play is more procedural based on mechanics, then professionalism. If you do not see something or you are not in position to see something, that does not mean you are unprofessional not to confer on something you did not see or when you trust the judgment of your partner. I rarely have to confer on anything when I have good partners that do their jobs.

I was at a meeting tonight where a Final Four official was the main speaker and in his opinion the reason he was where he was is because he "minds his business" most of the time. He was talking about not taking over games and making calls for his partners. He is about as respected an officials as anyone in the country and he feels he should let his partners work. We are all put on the game for a reason, if they cannot do their job it is not my job to save them or to ask them "Are you sure?" every time there is a close call. Basketball officials do not confer on foul calls unless we have a double whistle (and even then we agree or let our partner take the call), so why would we confer on other calls where someone sees the play completely in their primary? Maybe I have a different idea of professionalism.

Peace

[Coach Bill]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am not sure which MSU game you are referring to, but the one I can think of where they were in Ann Arbor, the call was not changed. And it was not changed because the calling official saw the entire play and ruled a dribble took place (I might have to post the video).
Peace

It was posted earlier by AremRed:

backcourt on a thrown in

You probably missed it, because you were too busy arguing with Afrosheen. That's a joke. They did change the backcourt call in this case. An official who may or may not have been in the best position (He was on the baseline) to see this, did see it 100%, and conferred with his partner, and they got the call right. I like it. And, I like it even when the call gets changed against my favor. I think of that as an aspect of professionalism. We can disagree. It's probably just semantics.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

It was posted earlier by AremRed:

backcourt on a thrown in

You probably missed it, because you were too busy arguing with Afrosheen. That's a joke. They did change the backcourt call in this case. An official who may or may not have been in the correct position to see this, did see it, and conferred with his partner, and they got the call right. I think of that as an aspect of professionalism, you probably just think of it as good officiating, Either way, I think we're in agreement.

Last chance to keep this thread on track.

My read of that particular video is that the non-calling official approached the other official to ask him what he saw. I highly doubt that official was watching the play from 50 feet away; not at that level. Now, he obviously had the experience, and the built in respect from the calling official, to talk through the play on the spot.

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by Adam

Now, he obviously had the experience, and the built in respect from the calling official, to talk through the play on the spot.

I'm being sincere here in my question of how you saw this situation to be different than mine. Answering this question I'll be able to learn from it and see what I could do better next time.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

It was posted earlier by AremRed:

backcourt on a thrown in

You probably missed it, because you were too busy arguing with Afrosheen. That's a joke. They did change the backcourt call in this case. An official who may or may not have been in the best position (He was on the baseline) to see this, did see it 100%, and conferred with his partner, and they got the call right. I like it. And, I like it even when the call gets changed against my favor. I think of that as an aspect of professionalism. We can disagree. It's probably just semantics.

This play is actually rather old. It is from about two seasons ago. This play was clipped up by APG and discussed on this site at the time. Actually the people here were part of the reason the play was clipped up if you have been paying attention to how things work here during the season. I think I was one of the people that asked for the play to be used here. And that was in the same season as I recall as another play with MSU later that season and the play was not overturned and gotten right.


Backcourt Violation Michigan State vs. Michigan - YouTubeBackcourt not overturned.

What about this play?

BTW, I have used both of these plays as a way to discuss when or when you help in association meetings which I am often given the platform to talk about mechanics being a state clinician. And talking does not make you more professional or not more professional. College guys have a completely different set of accountability that someone at an AAU game would never have. Because if MSU does not make the tournament they lose millions. If an AAU coach does not win the game, they are out a few hundred dollars. And no one is going to care when the game is over who actually won the game outside of the teams that might be at the tournament.

Peace

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

In this case we have an official almost completely out of position to know what is called or if a violation took place in most cases.
Peace

Again, I don't understand how this is a question of being out of position. If I have enough evidence to determine that my partner possibly kicked a rule, I'm going to go up to my partner to make sure that he's got the rule right. If it's a judgment then yes, positioning matters, but if it's a rule then I'm going to ask him to let me know his understanding of the rule and still give him the right to either keep or change the call. We are a crew, but if I'm working a game and it's going to be on tape, I'm going to be as accountable as my partner is when it comes to the rules, and the minimum obligation that is to be met in every game is for the crew of officials to make the game is officiated by the correct rules. If my partner makes a bad judgment call, fine, we'll talk it over in the locker room; but if he possibly kicked a rule, there is no question that I'm going to have him confirm to me his understanding of the rule and give him the opportunity to change the call before moving onto the next play.

Again, let me repeat for the nth time before I get bonked again, that I approached my partner in an overbearing fashion which created the fallout thereafter. I'm merely here to ask how to respectfully confer with your partner over such matters and thankfully I have at least the video of a similar situation during a D1 game to look over and learn.

edit: I'm noting that I'm on the same page as Coach Bill who posted prior to this one.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

Again, I don't understand how this is a question of being out of position. If I have enough evidence to determine that my partner possibly kicked a rule, I'm going to go up to my partner to make sure that he's got the rule right. If it's a judgment then yes, positioning matters, but if it's a rule then I'm going to ask him to let me know his understanding of the rule and still give him the right to either keep or change the call. We are a crew, but if I'm working a game and it's going to be on tape, I'm going to be as accountable as my partner is when it comes to the rules, and the minimum obligation that is to be met in every game is for the crew of officials to make the game is officiated by the correct rules. If my partner makes a bad judgment call, fine, we'll talk it over in the locker room; but if he possibly kicked a rule, there is no question that I'm going to have him confirm to me his understanding of the rule and give him the opportunity to change the call before moving onto the next play.

Are you going to go to your partner every time they call a travel? Are you going to say something if your partner calls closely guarded violation? What about 10 second violations? What about a held ball? You could do this all day and those things I just referenced and will likely happen in a game. Why was this situation you referenced so special? You did not have any direct information to add to the situation. You just did not trust your partner and then questioned his knowledge of the rule. If you had some information that would change the call, OK, but that is not what happened from my understanding.

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

Again, let me repeat for the nth time before I get bonked again, that I approached my partner in an overbearing fashion which created the fallout thereafter. I'm merely here to ask how to respectfully confer with your partner over such matters and thankfully I have at least the video of a similar situation during a D1 game to look over and learn.

edit: I'm noting that I'm on the same page as Coach Bill who posted prior to this one.

You could have approached your partner in the nicest way, that still does not give you the right to come to your partner and question their judgment by coming to them in your situation. Once again, if you had information that might have helped get the call right, like knowing the ball was touched in a way that would help in making the call. But you had none of that and only asked them a question. If you are going to come to a partner, you should not be asking questions, you should be giving information. I even tell partners if you are going to help with a call, come with information like, "I saw the ball touched.......so it cannot be a violation." When you ask a question if someone understands a rule, that is not being helpful in the heat of the battle. If you really did not see anything and are unsure, go to your partner at halftime or after the game to see if they understand the rule. But while the game is going on is the wrong time to do a rules clinic IMO.

Peace

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You could have approached your partner in the nicest way, that still does not give you the right to come to your partner and question their judgment by coming to them in your situation.

Peace

JRutledge, please read my posts more carefully as the rhetorical questions you're asking are all judgment plays (traveling - judging whether the dribble started before picking up the pivot foot; closely guarded - whether the defender was within six feet and actively guarding the opponent; 10 seconds - on the referee who's counting; held ball - simultaneous possession with no one gaining sole possession after a tug). I purposefully bolded the word "rule" for a reason.

As I just indicated all of these are judgment plays. I'm referring to rule mistakes. Examples of these include awarding the ball to the wrong team after an alternating possession where there was a technical foul during the last one; awarding a one-and-one when a team is not in bonus; taking away a team's privilege to run the baseline after a foul/violation on the throw-in on a made basket; not calling a violation on a free throw that doesn't hit the rim; continuing a ten-second count and thereby calling a violation off an interrupted possession where the ball went out of bounds in the backcourt and the same team inbounds the ball; awarding a basket on a field goal try with less than three tenths of a second remaining.

Take for example the last one. You're coming out of a timeout with less than three-tenths of a second remaining. Your partner is the trail and you are the lead. The play is in your partner's area, he sees a player catch the throw-in and immediately throw it at the basket and the ball goes in - Derek Fisher style. He turns around to the table and indicates to the table to score the basket and award the team with the win. What are you going to do?

Bottom line is, if your job is to "judge" plays then you ought to know when to confer with your partner over a call as that is part of the play as you're still responsible to judge whether the call by your partner merited a mini-conference to make sure as a crew you got the call right based on the rules.

Again, I'm asking how to respectfully confer with your partner over a particular call. Not every call, not judgment calls where your partner is on top of the play, but on those rare calls where your partner might have missed something you definitely saw, or a call that was based on a misinterpretation or ignorance of a rule regardless of your position or what you saw. Maybe this time, on the eight page of this thread, people who have been criticizing me will finally understand my question.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

JRutledge, please read my posts more carefully as the rhetorical questions you're asking are all judgment plays (traveling - judging whether the dribble started before picking up the pivot foot; closely guarded - whether the defender was within six feet and actively guarding the opponent; 10 seconds - on the referee who's counting; held ball - simultaneous possession with no one gaining sole possession after a tug). I purposefully bolded the word "rule" for a reason.

All those things can be incorrectly called because of the understanding or lack of understanding of the rules involved. And you just said something that shows either a lack of understanding of a rule or not knowing the rule on closely guarded.

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

As I just indicated all of these are judgment plays. I'm referring to rule mistakes. Examples of these include awarding the ball to the wrong team after an alternating possession; awarding a one-and-one when a team is not in bonus; taking away a team's privilege to run the baseline after a foul/violation on the throw-in on a made basket; not calling a violation on a free throw that doesn't hit the rim; awarding a basket on a field goal try with less than three tenths of a second remaining.

A backcourt violation involves both judgment as well as rules knowledge to make properly. That is no different then those other rules I referenced. And you even said something that is not part of the rule for closely guarded that could affect the judgment for making that call.

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

Take for example the last one. You're coming out of a timeout with less than three-tenths of a second remaining. Your partner is the trail and you are the lead. The play is in your partner's area, he sees a player catch the throw-in and immediately throw it at the basket and the ball goes in. He turns around to the table and indicates to the table to score the basket. What are you going to do?

That would depend, is the ball in my primary? Do I have the last second shot responsibility? Do I have a good look at the play?

Then again this is a last second shot situation, this is not a travel in the middle of the 1st quarter. I see more travels I disagree with and I have yet to see an official come to someone and ask an official about the rules in those cases, like calling a travel on a legal jump stop. Those are rules based too, not just judgment calls.

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

Again, I'm asking how to respectfully confer with your partner over a particular call. Not every call, not judgment calls where your partner is on top of the play, but on those rare calls where your partner might have missed something you definitely saw, or a call that was based on a misinterpretation or ignorance of a rule regardless of your position or what you saw. Maybe this time, on the eight page of this thread, people who have been criticizing me will finally understand my question.

I have told you how. And I would also add that not every call needs to have a conference when the only thing you are doing is asking questions. And some calls are much more acceptable to conference on, but those usually involve things like an out of bounds where it is very possible the ball is coming from different areas on the court and a partner can see who last touched it. Even then you do not ask a question, you tell your partner what you saw and let them decide if your information helps them make a call. And I am not criticizing you just to criticize you. If you have not noticed I was responding to Coach Bill's position on professionalism. You came in later to defend your original point, which I was not even being critical of again. You responded to me as if my comments to Bill was about you. That is fine, but I honestly have stated my opinion on this issue some time ago. You keep wanting to get validation that you were right. I guess that is fine, but there is a time and a place and your OP, that was not the time or the place.

Peace

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That would depend, is the ball in my primary? Do I have the last second shot responsibility? Do I have a good look at the play?

Then again this is a last second shot situation, this is not a travel in the middle of the 1st quarter. I see more travels I disagree with and I have yet to see an official come to someone and ask an official about the rules in those cases, like calling a travel on a legal jump stop. Those are rules based too, not just judgment calls.

Peace

"No" on all counts. And how does the "last shot" all of a sudden grant you to change up the "mechanics" as you described to Coach Bill. Either you're principled and consistent or you're just making stuff up now to maintain the belief that I was wrong. And it seems to be you keep dodging my question. What are you going to do when your partner kicks a rule? I'm also getting the sense that you're now at least willing to consider to confer with your partner now that it is a "last shot" situation, which means all of a sudden you're now willing to throw away all of your criticisms of me of being "out of position" or "questioning my partner" out the window. What is it about the "last shot" that you're now being inconsistent? What did you just do that created this inconsistency. I'll give you a hit, it starts with a "j" and ends with "udge."

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

"I saw the ball touched.......so it cannot be a violation."

I agree about not coming to your partner with everything...

but, when a partner does come in...do they really come to you with the above attitude?

We pre-game something like this...(and it is usually for OOB calls)

"...if you think you kicked the call (roar of the crowd/players/coach) then give me a look...(if I have information, and maybe even if I don't) I'll point the "CORRECT" direction...you blow your whistle and YOU change it...and away we go...don't waste a lot of time on it."

Sure, sometimes a partner might have to come in and give another partner some information, "unsolicited"...but, you better make sure you are 100% correct and it needs to be corrected. Even then...I am not about to tell my partner that "it cannot be this or cannot be that"...I give them the information I have and let them decide if they want to change THEIR CALL.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

Again, let me repeat for the nth time before I get bonked again, that I approached my partner in an overbearing fashion which created the fallout thereafter. I'm merely here to ask how to respectfully confer with your partner over such matters and thankfully I have at least the video of a similar situation during a D1 game to look over and learn.

First, we have answered that question ad nauseum, and you don't seem to like the answer. The answer, of course, is that while there are situations where we would approach our partners, the one you posted here is not one of them.

Using a D1 official's actions to justify doing it in an AAU game doesn't change the answer, for reasons I (and others) have already stated.