Questioning Partner's Call

[Adam]

Why would you assume he didn't know the rule?

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by Adam

Why would you assume he didn't know the rule?

Because coming out of the timeout, I was standing at the three-point line near the baseline as I gave the go ahead to my partner I saw that the offensive player was straddling the division line, who then faked the opponent to get space but then backed up. And as he was backing up he caught the pass. Apparently, he caught the pass with one hand in the frontcourt, then went into the backcourt as he brought up the other hand to catch the ball before he started dribbling. I went up to my partner to be sure that's what he saw, not one where he touched the ball in the front court then gained possession of it in the backcourt.

[Raymond]

1) Well, now you have a good pre-game topic of discussion for all the new guys your work with to make sure they know the throw-in/BC rule.

2) You used the word "apparently". Also, nobody told you to let the coach get screwed and have your partner explain the call 2-3 plays later. I specifically said to let your partner explain HIS call, and THEN move on with the game.

If it was me in your position and the coach was so inconsolable I would have said "Well Bob, he might have missed that one. We'll talk about what he saw after the game." Any response from me from that point on would have been "Let it go" or "We're moving on." I'm not letting a coach act an a$$ over a call that might have or apparently has been missed.

It's October, no one is getting screwed out of anything basketball related at this time of the year.

And we still don't know what your partner actually saw on the play; you haven't told us.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

2) You used the word "apparently". Also, nobody told you to let the coach get screwed and have your partner explain the call 2-3 plays later. I specifically said to let your partner explain HIS call, and THEN move on with the game.

I did, and I stand by it (unless this went differently than I imagine in my head). I'm not delaying the game to have a partner explain a BC call to a coach who is, essentially, just asking me to overturn it. The fact that the coach is asking for a conference at all tells me he saw something in the official's face that indicated he disagreed with his partner. That might be wrong, but in my experience, that's normally when I've seen it.

It could be that the OP is simply a known commodity to the coach, and he wanted the OP to "talk to" his partner. I had a coach ask my partner to do that once when I called a T (I was new to town) in an AAU game.

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

1) Well, now you have a good pre-game topic of discussion for all the new guys your work with to make sure they know the throw-in/BC rule.

When your partner is late and you gotta spend the first ten minutes checking pictures of the teams there's no time to go through particular violations. Besides, why would you think this would be acceptable to such a person when he's not willing to consider your points during the game? Going over the rules as a "pre-game" seems just as condescending.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

2) You used the word "apparently". Also, nobody told you to let the coach get screwed and have your partner explain the call 2-3 plays later. I specifically said to let your partner explain HIS call, and THEN move on with the game.

The word was used to describe what my partner saw, and what my partner saw was what I considered to be actual as I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

The concern that I had going forward from this play was not giving the coach the opportunity to possibly correct the call by conferring with my partner.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If it was me in your position and the coach was so inconsolable I would have said "Well Bob, he might have missed that one. We'll talk about what he saw after the game." Any response from me from that point on would have been "Let it go" or "We're moving on." I'm not letting a coach act an a$$ over a call that might have or apparently has been missed.

He wasn't "inconsolable." In fact he was quite understanding, but his immediate reaction was quite heated. He responded by saying: "That's not a backcourt violation; he didn't gain possession until he was in the backcourt; you gotta change that call ref." I responded to him by saying I'll ask what my partner saw, which I did, even though I insisted too much.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

It's October, no one is getting screwed out of anything basketball related at this time of the year.

Unfortunately, you don't know how AAU works. Teams pay money to play in these tournaments, so yes having a bad crew does leave a feeling of being screwed. But this was one call and I don't believe that this particular call screwed them all that much. And giving more attention to the call was sufficient for the coach despite the fact that it went against him in the end.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

And we still don't know what your partner actually saw on the play; you haven't told us.

Because I asked him with a yes or no question of whether the player controlled the ball in the frontcourt before going into the backcourt. He said yes both times I asked.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

...

Unfortunately, you don't know how AAU works. Teams pay money to play in these tournaments, so yes having a bad crew does leave a feeling of being screwed. But this was one call and I don't believe that this particular call screwed them all that much. And giving more attention to the call was sufficient for the coach despite the fact that it went against him in the end.
...

I beg to differ on this. My 9-to-5 job is 5 minutes from the Boo Williams Sportsplex, meaning I work and watch plenty of AAU ball. I am personal friends with the local AAU assignors, so I get to hear all the behind the scenes conversations concerning the coaches and officials, including when officials are at fault and when the coaches are at fault. And the national coorindator for AAU officials sits in that building every weekend during AAU season.

In a situation like yours, none of the powers that be would want another official questioning his partner based the reaction of an AAU coach. We go to our partners for one reason, to provide definite information. If I know a rule is being kicked, I will pull my partner away from the bench area and discuss it with him. But in the end, it will still be up to my partner to adjudicate as he sees fit.

In a college camp this past summer (during a high level AAU tournament) I had a play where I had the crew administer the throw-in at the wrong spot after my own inadvertent whistle. The most experienced official, by far, on the crew, tried to get me to change my mind but I was hard-headed. He didn't make a scene or extend the conversation, he just let me have my way. But, after the game he jumped in my a$$ and so did an off-duty observor who was watching the game.

Now, if your partner is too sensitive to handle post-game criticisms or critiques from you, in your capacity as an assignor, then maybe he is not somebody who should be getting games from you. But during the game, you are just an official, just like him.

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

In a situation like yours, none of the powers that be would want another official questioning his partner based the reaction of an AAU coach. We go to our partners for one reason, to provide definite information. If I know a rule is being kicked, I will pull my partner away from the bench area and discuss it with him. But in the end, it will still be up to my partner to adjudicate as he sees fit.

In a college camp this past summer (during a high level AAU tournament) I had a play where I had the crew administer the throw-in at the wrong spot after my own inadvertent whistle. The most experienced official, by far, on the crew, tried to get me to change my mind but I was hard-headed. He didn't make a scene or extend the conversation, he just let me have my way. But, after the game he jumped in my a$$ and so did an off-duty observor who was watching the game.

It wasn't solely on the basis of the coach's reaction. He reacted before I even got to my partner so really that was not at issue. I merely brought it up to say that instead of giving him a T, I told him that I would talk to my partner about it so he would calm down as I went up to my partner to fetch the ball.

After I talked to my partner, I didn't chew him out after the quarter was over. I in fact apologized to him as I've stated many many many times in this thread. Though it was a conditional apology, and because it was a conditional apology this official sought to invalidate the conditional by trying to prove my reasoning wrong with a lazy attempt at reading the rulebook.

As I said at the beginning I am not willing to cut a guy, or admonish a guy or be extreme in any way. I guess I'm more self-critical than most people where I should be giving myself credit for not being as rude like your partner and the observer who chewed you out on a kicked call.

I just wanted to know how you all used the opportunity to confer with your partner on a egregiously kicked call, like the one that AremRed posted earlier from a game with Tom Izzo. I would hope everyone here would be as willing as the officials in that game of conferring with the calling official and give the calling official to opportunity to correct his mistake to get the call right.

However, as I just experienced, there are many hard headed officials, and I'm not going to overrule my partner if he's too prideful to correct his mistake. I'll be willing to eat it and tell the coach that he should ask my partner if it's something that I can't defend.

But I'm not going to accept that because the official is young or inexperienced that I'm not going to go up to him and gently talk to him about the call in the most prudent way without making him feel rejected or ashamed on the spot.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

Because coming out of the timeout, I was standing at the three-point line near the baseline as I gave the go ahead to my partner I saw that the offensive player was straddling the division line, who then faked the opponent to get space but then backed up. And as he was backing up he caught the pass. Apparently, he caught the pass with one hand in the frontcourt, then went into the backcourt as he brought up the other hand to catch the ball before he started dribbling. I went up to my partner to be sure that's what he saw, not one where he touched the ball in the front court then gained possession of it in the backcourt.

Where were his feet when he caught it? How could you see so clearly from the end line where his feet were? There's no way I'm doing anything in this play, to be honest, from the way you describe it.

Most likely, when the coach starts crying, I'm going to respond by just shaking my head as I go to put the ball in play. At most, he'll get a "You'll need to ask Bob when you get a chance." More likely, nothing. He doesn't get to ask for a conference on a play so obviously out of my realm just because he thinks the call was wrong.

I ask again, what made you think your partner didn't know the rule? You really haven't given that answer.

Again, I can't think of any way I would approach a partner on a violation call he made where all of the action took place in his primary coverage area.

You mentioned the need/desire to get the call right, and I can understand that, but I just don't see this play as something that needs addressed on the court. Ask him at second dead ball if you have a question about what happened. Calling 50 feet away should be reserved for making obvious calls that need to be made to "save the game", such as hard fouls and train wrecks. Trying to overturn a hair splitting violation? I wouldn't.

It does make for great post game conversation, though.

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by Adam

Where were his feet when he caught it? How could you see so clearly from the end line where his feet were? There's no way I'm doing anything in this play, to be honest, from the way you describe it.

Left foot in the frontcourt, right foot in the backcourt. I stood a couple steps below where the Center would stand. That's your approach, to which I disagree as I believe the integrity of the game requires it.

Originally Posted by Adam

Most likely, when the coach starts crying, I'm going to respond by just shaking my head as I go to put the ball in play. At most, he'll get a "You'll need to ask Bob when you get a chance." More likely, nothing. He doesn't get to ask for a conference on a play so obviously out of my realm just because he thinks the call was wrong.

"Out of your realm" isn't the way the rulebook describes your secondary. It shouldn't be out of your realm. If a felony occurred in your secondary, and your partner did not call it, you better pick it up as that would be a travesty as to have two officials not call something something egregious would be extremely embarrassing. And when it comes to approaching your partner, I've been taught approach your partner when it's only absolutely necessary like when you got info that he may not have considered, which this play fits the bill.

Originally Posted by Adam

I ask again, what made you think your partner didn't know the rule? You really haven't given that answer.

He's an inexperienced official, with a troubled past who at times kicks calls during the game and likes to call three seconds in the key a lot, which I told him that could be more of a preventable call if he's willing to communicate to players. I expect the officials who are working varsity games to know the rules. When I'm working AAU games, I'm expecting the opposite, especially when I'm working with 2 or 3 year officials.

Originally Posted by Adam

Again, I can't think of any way I would approach a partner on a violation call he made where all of the action took place in his primary coverage area.

So you don't call anything ever in your secondary? Well that's unfortunate, and I guess if I was your partner, I would have be extremely concerned not to miss anything in my primary as my partner isn't going to be willing to pick up anything that I might miss.

Originally Posted by Adam

You mentioned the need/desire to get the call right, and I can understand that, but I just don't see this play as something that needs addressed on the court. Ask him at second dead ball if you have a question about what happened. Calling 50 feet away should be reserved for making obvious calls that need to be made to "save the game", such as hard fouls and train wrecks. Trying to overturn a hair splitting violation? I wouldn't.

It does make for great post game conversation, though.

Well I guess Tom Izzo in the play recorded above would hope that you'd not ref his game as he would have not been fortunate enough to have an official confer with his partner on a missed call in order to get it right.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

Apparently, he caught the pass with one hand in the frontcourt, then went into the backcourt as he brought up the other hand to catch the ball before he started dribbling.

So he was in the front court with possession, and went into the backcourt? If I'm reading this right, that's a backcourt. Just asking if I'm reading this right.

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

And as he was backing up he caught the pass. Apparently, he caught the pass with one hand in the frontcourt, then went into the backcourt as he brought up the other hand to catch the ball before he started dribbling. I went up to my partner to be sure that's what he saw, not one where he touched the ball in the front court then gained possession of it in the backcourt.

Originally Posted by OKREF

So he was in the front court with possession, and went into the backcourt? If I'm reading this right, that's a backcourt. Just asking if I'm reading this right.

Huh, that sounds strangely like this play...

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Huh, that sounds strangely like this play...

Yes, only that the pass was made where the referee was standing and that there was no "fumble;" he just touched the ball in the front court, but grabbed the ball with two hands in the backcourt. The body movement and everything is very similar to this play though.

edit: Just imagine it to be on the other side of the court, left foot down clearly in the front court as he touched the ball with his right hand. Right foot comes down on the line as he shifts his left foot back behind the division line, pivoting with his right foot to protect the ball with his body, then pivoting towards the tableside in order to face the basket and make a move.

I had a situation like yours, and wrote about it here if you want to read it. These situations are almost exactly the same, in that we were both trying to bring information to our partner to make the right (in our eyes) call.

In my thread, half the forum members thought my partner was too uptight about hearing my opinion on the play, and the other half thought I should have left the decision in his hands. It seems to me like the same thing has happened in this thread.

However, you are the assignor. You are in charge of setting expectations for those who work under you. As far as dealing with this guy: be direct. Tell him that the officiating crew is a team, and their goal is to get plays right. If your partner has information he thinks can help, he should present it. It is up to the calling official to decide whether to take it or not. The key is being humble enough to listen to his information, opinion, and/or criticism.

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I had a situation like yours, and wrote about it here if you want to read it. These situations are almost exactly the same, in that we were both trying to bring information to our partner to make the right (in our eyes) call.

In my thread, half the forum members thought my partner was too uptight about hearing my opinion on the play, and the other half thought I should have left the decision in his hands. It seems to me like the same thing has happened in this thread.

However, you are the assignor. You are in charge of setting expectations for those who work under you. As far as dealing with this guy: be direct. Tell him that the officiating crew is a team, and their goal is to get plays right. If your partner has information he thinks can help, he should present it. It is up to the calling official to decide whether to take it or not. The key is being humble enough to listen to his information, opinion, and/or criticism.

Thank you, I sincerely appreciate your posts in this thread as you kept your posts grounded and focused more on the approach rather than the nitty gritty stuff that will forever remain ambiguous and could be argued over for days.

I responded to the officials emails in a stern sense as I did apologize to him during the game so having to deal with an official attempting to win one over me wasn't something that I enjoyed addressing as he has a lot to work on as it is.

I distinguished his concern from the rulebook in that on the personal side that I was mistaken to have approached him as I know now that he's sensitive. And I told him the next time we work together that I'll leave him on his own to live and die on his own calls at the slight expense of the integrity of the game.

But on the other hand I told him that I did not appreciate how he tried to veil an attempt to prove my reasoning to be wrong in such a disingenuous manner especially after I first asked him to specify his question in his initial email. I suggested to him that I'll be willing to consider what he has to say if he first shows that he's willing to give a proper reading of the rulebook and presents himself in a more genuine manner. And I left it as that.