Offensive Foul after Shooting Foul?

[potato]

If A goes for a shot and B blocks & commits a foul, while still airborne, A pushes B away and makes the shot, would A be called for a foul or game stops when the defense commits a foul and a free throw awarded, or would A be awarded a free throw and A takes a foul and ball starts as if A commited a foul, but what if A missed the freethrow?

Usually double foul happens when a defensive foul is followed by another defensive foul, and rarely followed by an offensive foul, but it can happen if B fouled hard and A shoves B away to make a shot.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by potato

Usually double foul happens when a defensive foul is followed by another defensive foul,

Never is that the definition of or an example of a double foul.

In your play, it is a double foul, and both are penalized.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by potato

If A goes for a shot and B blocks & commits a foul, while still airborne, A pushes B away and makes the shot, would A be called for a foul or game stops when the defense commits a foul and a free throw awarded, or would A be awarded a free throw and A takes a foul and ball starts as if A commited a foul, but what if A missed the freethrow?

Always appreciate the challenge of considering a situation, but your blended statements and random punctuation and lack thereof render your situation difficult to understand. Could you please rephrase the situation more clearly and give me another chance to try to figure it out?

Originally Posted by potato

Usually double foul happens when a defensive foul is followed by another defensive foul,

This isn't compatible with the definition of a "double foul"...

Originally Posted by potato

...and rarely followed by an offensive foul, but it can happen if B fouled hard and A shoves B away to make a shot.

...though this might. One important consideration that might be helpful is that the defensive foul does not cause the ball to be come dead, but the player control foul does--immediately. That will have an impact on whether to count the score or not.

[bob jenkins]

Also (and I'm not sure if this will help potato), there are a couple of plays in the case book that deal with this -- and you get slightly different rulings depending on the specifics.

I don't have the books here to cite, though.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Always appreciate the challenge of considering a situation, but your blended statements and random punctuation and lack thereof render your situation difficult to understand. Could you please rephrase the situation more clearly and give me another chance to try to figure it out?


This isn't compatible with the definition of a "double foul"...


...though this might. One important consideration that might be helpful is that the defensive foul does not cause the ball to be come dead, but the player control foul does--immediately. That will have an impact on whether to count the score or not.

If this is counted as a double foul, then it does not fit the definition of a player control foul.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Adam

If this is counted as a double foul, then it does not fit the definition of a player control foul.

B2 fouls airborne shooter A1 and A1 having released the shot, at approximately the same time, fouls B3 before landing. Does that not fit the definition of a double foul? Or is it your contention that these two fouls are unlikely to happen at aproximately the same time?
Help me understand your point.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Freddy

B2 fouls airborne shooter A1 and A1 having released the shot, at approximately the same time, fouls B3 before landing. Does that not fit the definition of a double foul? Or is it your contention that these two fouls are unlikely to happen at aproximately the same time?
Help me understand your point.

Double fouls exclude PC fouls. If it's a double, then it's not a PC. That's why the case play, where a double foul is called on a shot, says to count the basket and give the ball to the defensive team for an end line throw in.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Adam

Double fouls exclude PC fouls. If it's a double, then it's not a PC. That's why the case play, where a double foul is called on a shot, says to count the basket and give the ball to the defensive team for an end line throw in.

Thanx. That gives me something to check out tonight. Just incidentally, isn't a "blarge" an example of a double foul, one of which is a PC foul?

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Adam

Double fouls exclude PC fouls. If it's a double, then it's not a PC. That's why the case play, where a double foul is called on a shot, says to count the basket and give the ball to the defensive team for an end line throw in.

Trying to find where either book says a double foul excludes PC fouls. Is there a reference I'm not seeing, or is that a reasonable inference you've drawn?
Not alleging you to be wrong, just trying to find a reference that justifies your point.
I do see that 2.19.8C says, "Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it is not a player control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul." Is that what you were referring to, or is there another I should consider?

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Freddy

B2 fouls airborne shooter A1 and A1 having released the shot, at approximately the same time, fouls B3 before landing. Does that not fit the definition of a double foul? Or is it your contention that these two fouls are unlikely to happen at aproximately the same time?
Help me understand your point.

This is not ever a double foul. In order to be a double foul, the opponents have to commit fouls against each other. This is not true in your scenario. This would always be a false double foul or simultaneous foul depending upon the timing of the two fouls.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by johnny d

This is not ever a double foul. In order to be a double foul, the opponents have to commit fouls against each other. This is not true in your scenario. This would always be a false double foul or simultaneous foul depending upon the timing of the two fouls.

Of course.
Duh.
Doi.
That's what I get when I try to think through these things while passing the time watching daughter's volleyball game.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That, is not a double foul. That is a false double foul since B2 committed the first foul and B3 was the one fouled by A1.

In this case, the foul by A1 is still a PC foul so the basket can be scored. But, since A1 was fouled in the act of shooting, A1 gets 2 FTs.

Now, the big question is whether you'll have A1 shoot the FTs with no one one the lane and award the ball to someone after the shot or if you'll shoot the FTs normally.

Did you mean "cannot be scored?"

As for your last question, it would depend on which foul happened first. In the OP, I'd clear the lane and give the ball to the defense after the basket.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

Did you mean "cannot be scored?"

As for your last question, it would depend on which foul happened first. In the OP, I'd clear the lane and give the ball to the defense after the basket.

I actually deleted that post right after I posted it when I read further down the thread and realized that my points had already been covered.

And, yes, I meant can NOT be scored.

I don't think it would depend on which happened first. If there is a PC foul, the ball is dead. Subsequent contact wouldn't even be a foul unless it was intentional or flagrant (and I don't think that is the situation under discussion). So, the only way you can get two fouls where one of them is a PC foul is if the PC foul happens last.

[dsavitzky]

I guess it depends on how you define "approximately at the same time," but I see this clearly as a false double foul, for which each foul carries its own penalty.

4.19.9 Situation A

The blocking foul doesn't cause the ball to become dead, but the foul by the offense (a player-control foul) wipes off the shot.

A1 gets two free throws on an empty lane. If the second free throw is made, team B gets a throw-in on the endline. If it's missed, team B gets a designated-spot throw-in nearest the spot of the player-control foul.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by dsavitzky

I guess it depends on how you define "approximately at the same time," but I see this clearly as a false double foul, for which each foul carries its own penalty.

4.19.9 Situation A.

See also 4.19.8C

I seem to recal another case, but maybe I'm getting it confused with the try-foul-GT (or BI) situation.