Basketball Traveling Rules/Picking up your dribble

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by potato

I have small hands so i cannot palm the ball with 1 hand, i can dribble light and have the ball stay on my hand for 2 seconds,

The dictionary definition of "come to rest" is to "slow down and stop."


If the ball is in your hand for two seconds, it has stopped there. period

[potato]

So it doesn't matter if the ball is still spinning on your hand due to the bounce from the dribble?

I see many point guards esp the tall ones like to do on the moon slow-mo runs when they bring the ball from the back court to the front, they usually run 3-4 steps with the hand in contact with the ball, because they bounce high & soft so their hand can stay in contact with the ball longer. But nobody gets called for travel due to this.

I guess it will end up with judgment call. And since you believe no player has the ability to move their feet so quick you are going to judge the ball came to rest on the hand.

I'm guessing traveling is one of those more difficult to make type of judgment calls.

They should just modify the rules & explicitly state something like the dribble has considered to have ended the moment the hand comes in contact with the ball while no further dribble occurs, this will make calls much easier & clear cut.

Originally Posted by just another ref

The dictionary definition of "come to rest" is to "slow down and stop."


If the ball is in your hand for two seconds, it has stopped there. period

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by potato

They usually run 3-4 steps with the hand in contact with the ball ... their hand can stay in contact with the ball longer.

"3-4 steps"? Stop counting steps. Counting steps has nothing to do with traveling, it's all about identifying a pivot foot and knowing the limitations on the player's pivot foot once that player holds the ball (always listen to bob).

"Hand can stay in contact with the ball". "Stay"? If the hand is staying in contact with the ball, then the player is probably holding the ball, the dribble has ended, now you have limitations in regard to what you can, and cannot, legally do.

Originally Posted by potato

I'm guessing traveling is one of those more difficult to make type of judgment calls.

Traveling is the toughest call for me to make in a game. Not block/charge. Not rebounding fouls. Not fouls committed against players in the act of shooting. Not intentional fouls. Thirty-two years working games, a ton of experience, and I still have one, or two, tough traveling calls every week during the season.

[potato]

I used 3-4 steps before he held the ball and used the term pivot non pivot run after he grabbed the ball, i guess i should have used 3-4 alternative foot steps instead because i already tried my best to explain "left/right/left/right step", i have used the pivot non pivot foot run to describe the movement after the player held the ball. I can't be using pivot non pivot foot to illustrate the feet movement before the ball rested on the hand.

I mentioned ball on hand doesn't mean he's holding the ball from the bottom because i mentioned the player is not palming/holding/grabbing the ball, but merely ball is in contact with the hand and i'm not sure why a normal player is not capable of having the ball in contact with the hand for 2 seconds during a normal bounce without needing to palm/hold the ball and i'm not sure why a normal person is not able to move his left foot -> right foot -> left foot -> right foot quick enough to complete the movement within 1-2 seconds, i'm sure even a huge guy can tip toe fast enough.

Bounces ball on floor once -> Hand comes in contact with ball in legal dribbling position guiding the bouncing ball from waist up to shoulder or higher WHILE: "moving his left foot -> moving his right foot -> moving his left foot" -> grabs the ball with both hands to end his dribble & establish a pivot right foot -> moves his left non pivot foot and jumps off that non pivot foot.

above is my best effort in narrating the scenario without using the word step(s).


you guys are like lawyers working on each and every single word and different people having different interpretations on the sentences i'm guessing the only clear cut way to ask a question is probably coming up with a video which i failed to google one.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

"3-4 steps"? Stop counting steps. Counting steps has nothing to do with traveling, it's all about identifying a pivot foot and knowing the limitations on the player's pivot foot once that player holds the ball (always listen to bob).

"Hand can stay in contact with the ball". "Stay"? If the hand is staying in contact with the ball, then the player is probably holding the ball, the dribble has ended, now you have limitations in regard to what you can, and cannot, legally do.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by potato

you guys are like lawyers working on each and every single word and different people having different interpretations on the sentences i'm guessing the only clear cut way to ask a question is probably coming up with a video which i failed to google one.

Well it matters what the language says in this very specific area for one. You cannot talk about steps when steps is no where in the rule or explanation of what is a violation or allowed by a player. The rule is rather simple for the most part but people like you make it more complicated by taking myths and trying to apply to what is legal or not. Even if you had video there is going to be some dispute on some plays as to when a player has established a pivot foot by stopping their dribble or when they catch the ball. Just do some research and you will see many of us debating this on a video.

The problem is you could understand by just reading the actual rule, instead of trying to find some vast paper to understand the rule. Actually it seems like you are confusing yourself more than anything.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Stop with the "steps" thinking. It's not part of the rule. A player is either holding the ball or dribbling the ball. If he's dribbling, then there are no restrictions on the movement of the feet. If he's holding the ball, then the pivot foot movement is restricted. Deciding when a player goes from dribbling to holding is judgment, and the judgment is not based on the number of steps.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You cannot talk about steps when steps is no where in the rule or explanation of what is a violation or allowed by a player.

Listen to bob, and to JRutledge. It's not about counting steps. It's never about counting steps. Never has been about counting steps. Never will be about counting steps. It's about the pivot foot, and only about the pivot foot. Period. Stop talking about counting steps.

To put it another way, in regard to traveling, never use the word, "step(s)", as a noun, i.e., "The player takes two steps", rather, only use the word, "step(s)", as a verb, i.e., "The player's right foot is his pivot foot, and he steps with his left foot".

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The rule is rather simple for the most part ...

Here are the simple parts: Once a player stops dribbling and holds the ball, he establishes a pivot foot. On a pass, or a shot, the pivot foot may be lifted, but may not return to the floor before the ball is released. Any other foot movement other than these two situations represent a traveling violation. That's "Traveling 101".

There is a complicated part to the rule: Jump stops to set the pivot foot. Players sometimes jump off of two feet, sometimes off of one foot, sometimes land on two feet, sometimes land on one foot, and jump off that foot to the other foot. Sometimes players can use either foot as the pivot foot, sometimes players can use neither foot as a pivot foot. That "Traveling 401", a graduate level course.

Note that I don't go into jump stops in my Mythbusters list. I did it on purpose, the list is designed to educate players ,coaches, and fans, not officials, with the possible exception of spanking brand new rookie officials.

[Adam]

More circles.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by potato

grabs the ball with both hands to end his dribble

That's all you need to know / determine. If the dribble hasn't ended until this point, then nothing (relevant to this play) that happened before matters.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by potato

...you guys are like lawyers working on each and every single word and different people having different interpretations on the sentences i'm guessing the only clear cut way to ask a question is probably coming up with a video which i failed to google one.

The best thing for you to do is actually put a whistle in your mouth and start officiating some basketball. Then you will see all these hypotheticals are meaningless to us. You will learn about something called "judgment".

But you are perfect foil for BillyMac. He will definitely keep your threads going.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

You are perfect foil for BillyMac. He will definitely keep your thread going.

Originally Posted by potato

You guys are like lawyers working on each and every single word.

BadNewsRef, Esquire, is correct. No way will I let potato make a common, ordinary, garden variety, travel violation call be more difficult than it actually is. I normally like a challenge, but this isn't really that challenging, it just takes some patience, and perseverance. Hey. I dealt with 125 middle school students every day for over thirty years. They would try to grind me down every single day, so I was just as stubborn as they were. This is a piece of cake. Stand back and watch me do do that voodoo that I do so well. I'm what you call an expert at stuff like this.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by potato

I used 3-4 steps before he held the ball and used the term pivot non pivot run after he grabbed the ball, i guess i should have used 3-4 alternative foot steps instead because i already tried my best to explain "left/right/left/right step", i have used the pivot non pivot foot run to describe the movement after the player held the ball. I can't be using pivot non pivot foot to illustrate the feet movement before the ball rested on the hand.

I mentioned ball on hand doesn't mean he's holding the ball from the bottom because i mentioned the player is not palming/holding/grabbing the ball, but merely ball is in contact with the hand and i'm not sure why a normal player is not capable of having the ball in contact with the hand for 2 seconds during a normal bounce without needing to palm/hold the ball and i'm not sure why a normal person is not able to move his left foot -> right foot -> left foot -> right foot quick enough to complete the movement within 1-2 seconds, i'm sure even a huge guy can tip toe fast enough.

Bounces ball on floor once -> Hand comes in contact with ball in legal dribbling position guiding the bouncing ball from waist up to shoulder or higher WHILE: "moving his left foot -> moving his right foot -> moving his left foot" -> grabs the ball with both hands to end his dribble & establish a pivot right foot -> moves his left non pivot foot and jumps off that non pivot foot.

above is my best effort in narrating the scenario without using the word step(s).
....

If the official judges that the player is holding the ball it is a travel or illegal dribble. If the official judges that the player is not holding the ball it is not a travel.

Why is that so difficult for you to accept?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by potato

I can't be using pivot non pivot foot to illustrate the feet movement before the ball rested on the hand.

Like a ray of sunshine coming through the clouds, potato is 100% correct. There is no pivot foot before the player holds the ball.

potato: Please note two keys on your keyboard, one on the lower right, and one on the lower left, both with the word, "Shift", with an arrow pointing up. Hold either of them down as you press other letter keys, and see what happens. It's amazing.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by potato

He grabbed the ball.

Grabbed? That's holding the ball. Identify a pivot foot and realize that there on now restrictions on moving that pivot foot.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by potato

"Left/right/left/right step".

If this takes place before the player holds the ball, then it has absolutely no bearing on a travel, or a no travel, call. If this takes place after the player holds the ball, then easy peasey lemon squeezy, it's a traveling violation.