Basketball Traveling Rules/Picking up your dribble

[potato]

and straight away hold the ball to do a pivot/non-pivot step without another dribble? so technically a 5-6 steps to the basket without a dribble is allowed.

Originally Posted by APG

If a player is not holding the ball, and doesn't commit any dribbling violations in the process, he can take as many steps as he wants.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by potato

and straight away hold the ball to do a pivot/non-pivot step without another dribble? so technically a 5-6 steps to the basket without a dribble is allowed.

If he takes that many steps with his hand on the ball, the odds are good that I'm going to think he was holding the ball with one hand, but yes, it's possible in theory.

[potato]

I have small hands so i cannot palm the ball with 1 hand, i can dribble light and have the ball stay on my hand for 2 seconds, all it takes is a little bit of lateral movement, and soft hands to make it "stick" with the ball, you can keep it longer on the hand if you run faster to create more lateral force on the ball and it won't be palming or carry (however officials will have their own view).

Or will you just call it palming because it looks out of conventional plays and totally unfair?

I know american footballers like to run left/right/left/right before going for the breakthrough run, basketball would look something like that with this move.

Originally Posted by Adam

If he takes that many steps with his hand on the ball, the odds are good that I'm going to think he was holding the ball with one hand, but yes, it's possible in theory.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by potato

I have small hands so i cannot palm the ball with 1 hand, i can dribble light and have the ball stay on my hand for 2 seconds,

The dictionary definition of "come to rest" is to "slow down and stop."


If the ball is in your hand for two seconds, it has stopped there. period

[potato]

So it doesn't matter if the ball is still spinning on your hand due to the bounce from the dribble?

I see many point guards esp the tall ones like to do on the moon slow-mo runs when they bring the ball from the back court to the front, they usually run 3-4 steps with the hand in contact with the ball, because they bounce high & soft so their hand can stay in contact with the ball longer. But nobody gets called for travel due to this.

I guess it will end up with judgment call. And since you believe no player has the ability to move their feet so quick you are going to judge the ball came to rest on the hand.

I'm guessing traveling is one of those more difficult to make type of judgment calls.

They should just modify the rules & explicitly state something like the dribble has considered to have ended the moment the hand comes in contact with the ball while no further dribble occurs, this will make calls much easier & clear cut.

Originally Posted by just another ref

The dictionary definition of "come to rest" is to "slow down and stop."


If the ball is in your hand for two seconds, it has stopped there. period

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by potato

They usually run 3-4 steps with the hand in contact with the ball ... their hand can stay in contact with the ball longer.

"3-4 steps"? Stop counting steps. Counting steps has nothing to do with traveling, it's all about identifying a pivot foot and knowing the limitations on the player's pivot foot once that player holds the ball (always listen to bob).

"Hand can stay in contact with the ball". "Stay"? If the hand is staying in contact with the ball, then the player is probably holding the ball, the dribble has ended, now you have limitations in regard to what you can, and cannot, legally do.

Originally Posted by potato

I'm guessing traveling is one of those more difficult to make type of judgment calls.

Traveling is the toughest call for me to make in a game. Not block/charge. Not rebounding fouls. Not fouls committed against players in the act of shooting. Not intentional fouls. Thirty-two years working games, a ton of experience, and I still have one, or two, tough traveling calls every week during the season.

[potato]

I used 3-4 steps before he held the ball and used the term pivot non pivot run after he grabbed the ball, i guess i should have used 3-4 alternative foot steps instead because i already tried my best to explain "left/right/left/right step", i have used the pivot non pivot foot run to describe the movement after the player held the ball. I can't be using pivot non pivot foot to illustrate the feet movement before the ball rested on the hand.

I mentioned ball on hand doesn't mean he's holding the ball from the bottom because i mentioned the player is not palming/holding/grabbing the ball, but merely ball is in contact with the hand and i'm not sure why a normal player is not capable of having the ball in contact with the hand for 2 seconds during a normal bounce without needing to palm/hold the ball and i'm not sure why a normal person is not able to move his left foot -> right foot -> left foot -> right foot quick enough to complete the movement within 1-2 seconds, i'm sure even a huge guy can tip toe fast enough.

Bounces ball on floor once -> Hand comes in contact with ball in legal dribbling position guiding the bouncing ball from waist up to shoulder or higher WHILE: "moving his left foot -> moving his right foot -> moving his left foot" -> grabs the ball with both hands to end his dribble & establish a pivot right foot -> moves his left non pivot foot and jumps off that non pivot foot.

above is my best effort in narrating the scenario without using the word step(s).


you guys are like lawyers working on each and every single word and different people having different interpretations on the sentences i'm guessing the only clear cut way to ask a question is probably coming up with a video which i failed to google one.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

"3-4 steps"? Stop counting steps. Counting steps has nothing to do with traveling, it's all about identifying a pivot foot and knowing the limitations on the player's pivot foot once that player holds the ball (always listen to bob).

"Hand can stay in contact with the ball". "Stay"? If the hand is staying in contact with the ball, then the player is probably holding the ball, the dribble has ended, now you have limitations in regard to what you can, and cannot, legally do.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by potato

Have the ball stay on my hand for 2 seconds, all it takes is a little bit of lateral movement, and soft hands to make it "stick" with the ball, you can keep it longer on the hand if you run faster to create more lateral force on the ball and it won't be palming or carry.

"Stay on my hand"? That's holding the ball, dribble has ended, now you have limitations in regard to what you can, and cannot, legally do.

"Lateral movement"? Once that hand gets to the point where it's perpendicular to the floor, officials will start their decision making process in regard to whether, or not, you are holding the ball. Most will probably decide that you are holding the ball, the dribble has ended, now you have limitations in regard to what you can, and cannot, legally do.

"Stick"? That's holding the ball, dribble has ended, now you have limitations in regard to what you can, and cannot, legally do.

"On the hand"? That's holding the ball, dribble has ended, now you have limitations in regard to what you can, and cannot, legally do.

"It won't be palming or carry"? Yes it will be. Call it what you like, palming, carry, or travel, but it's illegal. See post #32 above.

[APG]

Originally Posted by potato

and straight away hold the ball to do a pivot/non-pivot step without another dribble? so technically a 5-6 steps to the basket without a dribble is allowed.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here, but it doesn't matter. My original statement still stands... if a player isn't holding the ball, and doesn't commit any dribbling violations, then a player could in theory take as many steps as he wanted.

[BktBallRef]

You can't travel while dribbling the ball.

If you lift your pivot foot before release the dribble, you have traveled.

If you end your dribble, pick your pivot foot up and put it back down while still holding the ball, you have traveled.

And I'm with the others...I have no idea why you're having such trouble comprehending this.

[BillyMac]

While dribbling, a player can slam the ball down onto the court with such force such that it bounces twenty-five feet into the air, and then take fifteen steps while the ball is in the air, and not be called for traveling. He can still continue to dribble once the ball comes back down and not be called for an illegal dribble.

Let's get some input from the Mythbusters:



The traveling rule is one of the most misunderstood rules in basketball. To start a dribble, the ball must be released before the pivot foot is lifted. On a pass or a shot, the pivot foot may be lifted, but may not return to the floor before the ball is released. A player may slide on the floor while trying to secure a loose ball until that player’s momentum stops. At that point that player cannot attempt to get up or rollover. A player securing a ball while on the floor cannot attempt to stand up unless that player starts a dribble. A player in this situation may also pass, shoot, or request a timeout. If the player is flat on his or her back, that player may sit up without violating.

A player must be holding the ball (with one very rare exception) in order to travel. A player can't travel while dribbling, while tapping the ball, while fumbling it, or while trying to recover a loose ball. During a fumble the player is not in control of the ball, and therefore, cannot be called for a traveling violation. A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball is unintentionally dropped or slips from a player’s grasp. After a player has ended a dribble and fumbled the ball, that player may recover the ball without violating. Any steps taken during the recovery of a fumble are not traveling, regardless of how far the ball goes and the amount of advantage that is gained. It is always legal to recover a fumble, even at the end of a dribble, however that player cannot begin a new dribble, which would be an illegal dribble violation. A player who fumbles the ball when receiving a pass may legally start a dribble.

The shooter can retrieve his or her own airball, if the referee considers it to be a shot attempt. The release ends team control. It is not a violation for that player to start another dribble at that point. When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. If, in this situation, the defender simply touches the ball, and the airborne shooter returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

Palming or carrying is when the ball comes to rest in the player's hand, and the player either travels with the ball, or dribbles a second time. There is no restriction as to how high a player may bounce the ball, provided the ball does not come to rest in a player’s hand. Steps taken during a dribble are not traveling, including several that are sometimes taken when a high dribble takes place. It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble.

[potato]

It's not about how high, but i'm referring to the fact that the player's hand is in contact with the ball while running so he has total control over the ball, Adam got the idea what i'm trying to say, but Adam it's very possible to take 4-5 very quick steps jab steps left right left right (for a normal person within 2 seconds) while ball is on hand without palming, and still able to grab hold of the ball and do a pivot non-pivot run.

i couldn't find a video that any players actually did this, the closest was the Michael Jordan travel but he got called for palming before he had the chance to show it's legal to continue with a pivot non-pivot run all the while with the ball on his hand.

I'm sure if someone did this infront of officials chances are they going to call it a travel because it'd look so extremely awkward and since it seems nobody's though about this move or done it before. It would look like someone running all the way from 3/4 court to under the basket with his hand on the ball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_LktMbXNPQ

An easy way to picture it is something like this move by MJ, but let's assume: "MJ wasn't palming and he didn't do the last bounce on the ball before the layup" and instead held the ball to end the so called dribble and took a pivot/non-pivot run to finish the play, all the while his hand on the ball.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

While dribbling, a player can slam the ball down onto the court with such force such that it bounces twenty-five feet into the air, and then take fifteen steps while the ball is in the air, and not be called for traveling. He can still continue to dribble once the ball comes back down and not be called for an illegal dribble.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by potato

i'm referring to the fact that the player's hand is in contact with the ball while running so he has total control over the ball,

The hand is in contact with the ball for an extended period of time. He has "total control" of the ball. This, for me, pretty much defines the ball coming to rest, ending the dribble.

it's very possible to take 4-5 very quick steps jab steps left right left right (for a normal person within 2 seconds) while ball is on hand without palming,

I think not.

[potato]

1.ball in contact with hand for extended period of time: about 1-2 seconds, ,you can easily see many dribblers hand in contact with the ball for 3-4 steps when they dribble from back to frontcourt, but they usually continue to dribble so it doesn't look awkward. I shouldn't have used "Total control", but since the ball is in contact with the hand he has quite abit of control.

2.get off your chair and do a quick left right left right baby steps with your feet, it's very possible for normal person. i don't mean full length steps that covers maximum range, but baby steps to make it like you are going left/right.

Originally Posted by just another ref

The hand is in contact with the ball for an extended period of time. He has "total control" of the ball. This, for me, pretty much defines the ball coming to rest, ending the dribble.



I think not.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by potato

It's very possible to take 4-5 very quick steps jab steps left right left right while ball is on hand without palming, and still able to grab hold of the ball ...

Stop right there. "Hold"? The dribble has now ended and the player is limited in regard to what he can, or can't, do with his pivot foot, according to the traveling rules.