Things Officials Should Probably Not Be Saying In A Game ...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You seem to be upset or irritated by. I think I have a right to my opinion, it is not about right or wrong.

I am neither upset, nor am I irritated. You are entitled to an opinion, but I'm dealing with factual rules here, not opinions. "Don't move" is a factually wrong as telling players to, "Stand behind the division line", during a free throw for a technical foul free throw. It's wrong, and it's wrong.

You can certainly have a valid opinion that it alright to say "Don't move", that it really doesn't effect the outcome of the situation, or the game (although I have given one example of a technical foul charged to a coach because he thought a player "couldn't move", but lets just call that anecdotal evidence, and forget about it). That's an opinion that's alright to have.

But you cannot argue that, "Don't move", is factually correct. That's not an opinion, that's facts, or the lack of such. You are certainly welcome to have an opinion that two plus two equals five, but it's still factually untrue. You can have an opinion that BillyMac lacks math skills and believes that two plus two equals five, and that may certainly be 100% true, but that doesn't mean that two plus two equals five.

Maybe it doesn't belong on the list. Maybe it's wrong to avoid saying it. All valid, and possibly true, opinions. But it still doesn't match the written, and interpreted rules. That's a fact, Jack.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I am neither upset, nor am I irritated. You are entitled to an opinion, but I'm dealing with factual rules here, not opinions. "Don't move" is a factually wrong as telling players to, "Stand behind the division line", during a free throw for a technical foul free throw. It's wrong, and it's wrong.

You can certainly have a valid opinion that it alright to say "Don't move", that it really doesn't effect the outcome of the situation, or the game (although I have given one example of a technical foul charged to a coach because he thought a player "couldn't move", but lets just call that anecdotal evidence, and forget about it). That's an opinion that's alright to have.

But you cannot argue that, "Don't move", is factually correct. That's not an opinion, that's facts, or the lack of such. You are certainly welcome to have an opinion that two plus two equals five, but it's still factually untrue. You can have an opinion that BillyMac lacks math skills and believes that two plus two equals five, and that may certainly be 100% true, but that doesn't mean that two plus two equals five.

Maybe it doesn't belong on the list. Maybe it's wrong to avoid saying it. All valid, and possibly true, opinions. But it still doesn't match the written, and interpreted rules. That's a fact, Jack.

You miss the overall point (once again). We have to communicate many things quickly and precisely and do so using terminology players and coaches would understand. If we don't then we will confuse the people we are talking to. They are not looking to us for a rules clinic or a complete explaination of what the rule is on a throw-in or other things. You used the example of telling players to go to half court, but I have never told any player to go to half court but that is where they tend to end up. I know I tell them usually to just vacate the lane nad where they go after that is their business. This is usually an either/or answer or a statement to convey which kind of throw-in is taking place. And after timeouts it is very common to have a player that is about to throw-in the ball ask, "Can I move?" They are not asking what they can do in a designated spot and likely have never heard the term "designated spot." And I did not say you should or should not say this as well. And I am taking issue with your take on this not because of right and wrong, but why does it matter? It does not matter as no one is that intune to what we are saying that they think, "Well that means I cannot move." Do they think they cannot move their arms or head or the ball because we say, "Don't move" on a throw-in? Funny, I have never had a player feel restricted in what they do. If they do not know what the rule is or their coach has not told them what they cannot do like other aspects of the game, that is not my fault or my responsiblity to teach it to them. And I cannot remember the last time I have ever called a violation or seen a player "not move" to the point they are stagnant or act like if they breathe they will violate some rule. And if I find it necessary, I am still going to say it when approrpirate despite what you suggest Billy. No one in my officiating life has told me or anyone to stop using or not to say this in any way. And I have been to many camps and trainings where this could be discussed or I have been observed as well as others that have said similar things.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You miss the overall point (once again). We have to communicate many things quickly and precisely and do so using terminology players and coaches would understand. If we don't then we will confuse the people we are talking to. They are not looking to us for a rules clinic or a complete explaination of what the rule is on a throw-in or other things.
Peace

Actually, Billy is spot on this time.

It should be our goal to use accurate and brief communications that convey the meaning without implying things that are not true. You may have found a short phrase that is quick and gets your desired results but it over states the requirement. Such things are the genesis of myths and misconceptions. No one says you need to give a complete explanation of the rule is but you shouldn't be stating it in a way that is wrong.

I've T'd a coach over an opponent who "moved" on a spot throw in because he was sure they couldn't "move". Where did he get that idea? From officials who tell the players and coaches "don't move". By saying "don't move" you have confused them, not informed them.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Actually, Billy is spot on this time.

It should be our goal to use accurate and brief communications that convey the meaning without implying things that are not true. You may have found a short phrase that is quick and gets your desired results but it over states the requirement. Such things are the genesis of myths and misconceptions. No one says you need to give a complete explanation of the rule is but you shouldn't be stating it in a way that is wrong.

I've T'd a coach over an opponent who "moved" on a spot throw in because he was sure they couldn't "move". Where did he get that idea? From officials who tell the players and coaches "don't move". By saying "don't move" you have confused them, not informed them.

I have never T'd a coach over this issue and honestly have not been the administrating official and they think the player had a pivot foot and moved that "pivot foot" or what they thought was a pivot foot.

What have you misinformed them about?

Actually years ago I had to T a coach because he felt after a made basket (FT) that I should as the official go to the other side of the court and hand the thrower the ball. Not only would that have been against our state's mechanic to not bounce the ball across the lane, but it would have confused the hell out of my partners and wondering why C could now have to go to L and the L would have to go to C. The coach was convinced that his ability to throw the ball in had something to do with where I gave his player the ball and acted out and got a T. And I told his player, "You can run over there if you like."

Again you are entilted to your opinion, but when someone that I work for or with complains about such communication it will certainly be the first. Until I read this thread I would not have known anyone cared that much.

Peace

[johnny d]

I have to agree with JRut on this one. In the middle of a game it isn't my responsibility to conduct a rules clinic for the players and coaches. I use spot throw-in rather than don't move. If the player and or coach, because of their lack of rule knowledge, takes that to mean they cannot move that is their problem, not mine. They will figure it out eventually or continue to put themselves at a disadvantage. As far as perpetuating myths and misconceptions, the horse is already out of the barn. Fans, players, and coaches have already been influenced by their exposure to these and their stance on the rules or plays in question isn't going to change until they actually read the rule book. Since we all know that is going to happen, worrying about the myths and misconceptions these people hold is a complete waste of time and energy.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Since we all know that is going to happen, worrying about the myths and misconceptions these people hold is a complete waste of time and energy.

Absolutely.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by johnny d

I have to agree with JRut on this one. In the middle of a game it isn't my responsibility to conduct a rules clinic for the players and coaches. I use spot throw-in rather than don't move. If the player and or coach, because of their lack of rule knowledge, takes that to mean they cannot move that is their problem, not mine. They will figure it out eventually or continue to put themselves at a disadvantage. As far as perpetuating myths and misconceptions, the horse is already out of the barn. Fans, players, and coaches have already been influenced by their exposure to these and their stance on the rules or plays in question isn't going to change until they actually read the rule book. Since we all know that is going to happen, worrying about the myths and misconceptions these people hold is a complete waste of time and energy.

Difference is, you're not saying "don't move."

I say, "this is your spot."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Adam

Difference is, you're not saying "don't move."

I say, "this is your spot."

So what is the difference in what you are telling them? Does a player stay their like a statue? Do they know what spot they have? Do they know what that means? Seriously, what are they getting out of your words they think they cannot do?

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by johnny d

I use spot throw-in rather than don't move.

Sounds like you agree with me, otherwise you would say, "Don't move". After all, according to some Forum members, both statements mean the same thing, with, "Spot throw-in", being much too complex for player's brain to handle without the official conducting an "on the spot" rules clinic (pun intended).

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I've T'd a coach over an opponent who "moved" on a spot throw in because he was sure they couldn't "move". Where did he get that idea? From officials who tell the players and coaches "don't move". By saying "don't move" you have confused them, not informed them.

I didn't T her, but had a spirited discussion over this once. GV the thrower moved slightly and bounced the ball on the floor. Home coach emphatically said that she couldn't do that. At halftime she came to me with it, in a relatively nice way. The floor had 12" tiles. This is an ideal way to describe what the thrower can do. She stands on one tile. This is the center of the spot. She can do a crossover step to the adjacent tile and then extend to her maximum length from there without violating. She "knew better" than this. I offered to bet double or nothing the game fee.

After the game the assistant was trying to look up the rule online, or so I heard.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You miss the overall point (once again).

JRutledge: No. You're missing the point. I am agreeing that you may have a valid opinion that, "Don't move", should not be on a list of "Things Officials Should Probably Not Be Saying In A Game", in fact just for the sake of argument, I may agree with you on that, that is, that, "Don't move", should not be on a list of "Things Officials Should Probably Not Be Saying In A Game". There, now we're in agreement in regard to our opinion of said list. Peace.

Let's agree, or, for sake of argument, pretend to agree, for sake of argument, on something else, that there are alternative things to say to player in a designated spot throwin, but, "Don't move" seems to be the quickest, and the best, statement that most efficiently communicates needed information to a player, and to a coach, without holding a rules clinic. So now were in agreement, for sake of argument, on two things. Peace.

Now let's look at some facts, not opinions, but cold facts.

Fact #1: Despite that fact that we agree that, "Don't move", seems to be the quickest, and the best, statement that most efficiently communicates needed information to a player, and to a coach, without holding a rules clinic, it does not match the rules in the rulebook. There are there scenarios where a designated spot inbounder can legally move, within the designated area, a step, either side, outside the designated area, and as far back as can be accomplished in five seconds. These are facts, not opinions.

Fact #2: At least two officials on this Forum, Camron Rust, and BillyMac, have dealt with coaches who took the directive, "Don't move", literally, and were charged with technical fouls for unsporting complaining about opponent players who "moved" on a spot throw in because he was sure they couldn't "move". These are facts, not opinions.

Now that I have validated, and accepted, for sake of argument, that your opinion that, "Don't move", does not belong on a list of "Things Officials Should Probably Not Be Saying In A Game", can you, JRutledge, at least, give me the courtesy of answering the following two questions?

1) Do you dispute that Fact #1 (above) is, indeed, factual?

2) Do you dispute that Fact #2 (above) is, indeed, factual?

What if the list were named: "Things That Officials Say In A Game That Are Not Factually Consistent With The Rules Of The Game Of Basketball, But They Say Them Anyway Because It's The Most Efficient Way To Communicate With Players, and Coaches"?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Now let's look at some facts, not opinions, but cold facts.

Fact #1: Despite that fact that we agree that, "Don't move", seems to be the quickest, and the best, statement that most efficiently communicates needed information to a player, and to a coach, without holding a rules clinic, it does not match the rules in the rulebook. There are there scenarios where a designated spot inbounder can legally move, within the designated area, a step, either side, outside the designated area, and as far back as can be accomplished in five seconds. These are facts, not opinions.

I do not think it is a requirement to use every term that the rulebook uses to communicate to people that do not know the rulebook language. Yes, we should you rulebook language as a standard, but there are times when it will not always convey the proper message without having an elongated discussion with a player or coach. And when they ask, "Can I move?" they certainly are not using rulebook language and I do not have the energy to try to make sure they understand what that means in the rulebook. Just like when a coach ask me on a block charge call, "Was he set", I might tell them "yes" and move on.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Fact #2: At least two officials on this Forum, Camron Rust, and BillyMac, have dealt with coaches who took the directive, "Don't move", literally, and were charged with technical fouls for unsporting complaining about opponent players who "moved" on a spot throw in because he was sure they couldn't "move". These are facts, not opinions.

Neither of you live in my state. Neither of you are an assignor I work for. Neither of you are the Head Clinician. So it is nice that this is part of your experience, but it is certainly not my experience or any experience I have heard of until this very discussion. So obviously what I have been doing for years (and not what I say every time BTW) has never been a problem to the point where I had to give a T for what I said. And I have never had an argument over the issue as well. I will certainly be more aware, but I doubt it is going to change anything I will say or not say. I do sometimes say "spot" but it depends on what has happened in the game or who I am speaking to. Sometimes, "Don't move" solves the problem.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Now that I have validated, and accepted, for sake of argument, that your opinion that, "Don't move", does not belong on a list of "Things Officials Should Probably Not Be Saying In A Game", can you, JRutledge, at least, give me the courtesy of answering the following two questions?

1) Do you dispute that Fact #1 (above) is, indeed, factual?

2) Do you dispute that Fact #2 (above) is, indeed, factual?

I never said a thrower could not move under the rules under and circumstances. But you keep acting like because you say they cannot move they are taking you so literally that they actually believe they cannot move literally. I have never seen a thrower think that their feet or body was in stone as a result of what we tell them. Obviously they move if they can move their arms, which is usually required in order to throw the ball onto the court. Stop being ridiculous to try to make some point no one is making in this situation. No one is taking us that literally in anything we tell them irregardless of what you are tying to state on this site. And in #2 it is a fact that many more officials do not wear a belt on the court, but you do. You have been ridiculed by some here for that very reason and you keep wearing a belt proudly. Does that fact change what you do or what you wear? Nope, so why would this be so compelling that two people that live in a completely different place and one of you never works 3 Person for varsity and does not work playoffs (your admission) be so compelling of an argument? And one person that said it was not a big deal actually lives in my state. That to me would be a much more compelling argument to keep doing what I have been doing if you ask me.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

What if the list were named: "Things That Officials Say In A Game That Are Not Factually Consistent With The Rules Of The Game Of Basketball, But They Say Them Anyway Because It's The Most Efficient Way To Communicate With Players, and Coaches"?

If you want to come up with any list that is your right. But just like most lists people will disagree with the content or the order. Every watched the NFL Network and the Top 10 list shows. People disagree with the content all the time. This will be no different.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

"Can I move?" ... "Was he set", I might tell them "yes" and move on.

"Yes" was not on my list of things not to say.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And I have never had an argument over the issue as well.

Until this week.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do sometimes say "spot".

Sounds like a BillyMac disciple.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I never said a thrower could not move under the rules under and circumstances.

I never said that you did. I was just looking for some common ground. Common ground is usually a good thing, almost ranking right up there with peace.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And in #2 it is a fact that many more officials do not wear a belt on the court, but you do.

True, but I do not see that mentioned anywhere in #2. Maybe my monitor needs adjusting?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You keep wearing a belt proudly.

I don't keep wearing it because I'm proud, I keep wearing it because I find it comfortable, because, according to IAABO guidelines, I can, and because belted pants are considered acceptable here in my little corner of Connecticut. I am certainly aware that a belt would be considered completely unacceptable in other parts of the country, maybe in all other parts of the country. What you are confusing for pride is actually me demonstrating what most of us already know regarding officiating, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." That's why I'm usually the one bringing up the belt, often making fun of myself.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

One of you never works 3 Person for varsity and does not work playoffs.

I've never worked a state tournament game. I'm not one of the best dozen, of so, officials in our board of 325 officials. I have worked conference, and league, playoffs, including, at least, one final. In regard to three person games, I can't help it if I live in The Land That Time Forgot.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

People will disagree with the content or the order.

Which is exactly why I only asked for additions to the list. Knowing how the Forum works, I purposely did not ask for deletions, nor did I ask for any priority order (although I do admit that the earring statement has a very local flavor to it). My request was quite successful, with three statements being added to my list.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I really don't want to get into a debate regarding whether, or not, we should be saying things like this in a game for the purpose of preventative officiating. Anything to add to the list?

[BillyMac]

After a few suggestions from Forum members, here's where I currently stand at this point. A reminder, this is a list of Things Officials Should Probably Not Be Saying In A Game, things that officials often, or sometimes, say during a game that do not have any basis in the rules.

"On the floor" (for fouls against players who are not in the act of shooting).
"Don't move" (before a designated spot throwin).
"Hold your spots" (before the jump ball).
"You can't stand behind him" (before a the jump ball, to a player who is directly behind an opponent, who are both ten feet off the circle).
"Everybody get behind the division line" (during a free throw for a technical, or intentional, foul).
"Let it hit the rim" (before a free throw).
"Over the back" (on a rebounding foul, it's probably a pushing foul).
"Reaching in" (on a foul against a ball handler, it's probably a holding foul, an illegal use of hands foul, or a hand check foul).
"Coach, you have one timeout left" (when, by rule, we should only be notifying head coaches when their team has been granted its final allowable timeout).
"Sit down" (to a coach who has not been charged with a technical foul).
"You have to take out your earrings" (instead of, "You can't play with earrings").

Any more additions?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You used the example of telling players to go to half court, but I have never told any player to go to half court ...

But others have. Please don't tempt me to start a poll asking if any Forum member has ever observed, or worked with, or heard about, an official who directed players to go behind the division line.