Things Officials Should Probably Not Be Saying In A Game ...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Nothing I have heard changes my mind or seems relevant to what a player thinks they can or cannot do.

Keep saying, "Don't move", over, and over again, along with a few partners that also say it, and eventually a player, or even worse, a coach, will start to believe what they hear. Far fetched? Maybe, but it happened to me in a game:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I had to T up a coach this past year because he wouldn't stop complaining to my partner, who, as the administering official, let a player "move" on a designated spot throwin. The coach kept saying, "But he can't move". My partner tried, and I tried, to explain the movement limitations on a designated spot throwin, but he wouldn't accept any of that, he just kept saying, "But he can't move". Eventually, I had to tell him to, "Sit down".

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Keep saying, "Don't move", over, and over again, along with a few partners that also say it, and eventually a player, or even worse, a coach, will start to believe what they hear. Far fetched? Maybe, but it happened to me in a game:

Why would I care if a player thinks they cannot move?

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Why would I care if a player thinks they cannot move?

Man. You are one persistent son of a gun. You stick to your guns. You're a pain in the butt, but, good for you. I often wish that I had your confidence. You're still wrong, but you're persistent, and confident. Again, good for you.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Man. You are one persistent son of a gun. You stick to your guns. You're a pain in the butt, but, good for you. I often wish that I had your confidence. You're still wrong, but you're persistent, and confident. Again, good for you.

It is not about sticking to my guns, I just do not agree with you. You have not said anything that anyone has stated that is in charge or over an organization that I am apart of in any capacity. If you do not want to stay "Don't move" that is fine with me. But you are not in a position to tell me or others what they should or should not say, when it really does not have connotation that you have assumed it does with everyone. I have similar pet peeves but I know they are my pet peeves, not speaking for what others should do. Just like you wearing a belt, it is up to you to decide if that is what you want to do when others thinks it looks silly. And trust me, there are more people that do not want to wear a belt then are upset about this terminology that you seem to be upset or irritated by. I think I have a right to my opinion, it is not about right or wrong.

Peace

[Travelling Man]

Add to your list:
1. Refs don't need to "remind" a coach that they have been issued a 1st warning prior to giving them a second technical foul and subsequent ejection.

2. When a coach asks "how many timeouts do I have?" We refs have no business informing them; that's the responsibility of their ass't coach or score table personnel.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Travelling Man

Add to your list:
1. Refs don't need to "remind" a coach that they have been issued a 1st warning prior to giving them a second technical foul and subsequent ejection.

2. When a coach asks "how many timeouts do I have?" We refs have no business informing them; that's the responsibility of their ass't coach or score table personnel.

To your first point. We don't have to give them a warning anyway. Reminding them of their warning is just giving them another warning, and that's just from the UN school of game management.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Travelling Man

When a coach asks "how many timeouts do I have?" We refs have no business informing them; that's the responsibility of their ass't coach or score table personnel.

"Coach, you have one timeout left"? We've debated that here on the Forum in the past. I will consider it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

"Coach, you have one timeout left"? We've debated that here on the Forum in the past. I will consider it.

I don't offer it, but if asked I will answer.

[Rob1968]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

"Coach, you have one timeout left"? We've debated that here on the Forum in the past. I will consider it.

NFHS Rules 2-7-11 Officials' General Duties . . . Notifying the head coach when a team is granted its final allowable time-out.
Some supervisors would rather that we notify the head coach when a team has one time-out left.
"When in Rome . . ."

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You have not said anything that anyone has stated that is in charge or over an organization that I am apart of in any capacity. If you do not want to stay "Don't move" that is fine with me. But you are not in a position to tell me or others what they should or should not say, when it really does not have connotation that you have assumed it does with everyone.

Read my thread starter. I'm writing an article for my local board newsletter, which I hope may become part of my local board's training program. All I asked for was for additional items on the list, i.e., "On the floor". That's all I asked for, nothing more. Some wanted to debate certain items. I'm always up for a good debate.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You seem to be upset or irritated by. I think I have a right to my opinion, it is not about right or wrong.

I am neither upset, nor am I irritated. You are entitled to an opinion, but I'm dealing with factual rules here, not opinions. "Don't move" is a factually wrong as telling players to, "Stand behind the division line", during a free throw for a technical foul free throw. It's wrong, and it's wrong.

You can certainly have a valid opinion that it alright to say "Don't move", that it really doesn't effect the outcome of the situation, or the game (although I have given one example of a technical foul charged to a coach because he thought a player "couldn't move", but lets just call that anecdotal evidence, and forget about it). That's an opinion that's alright to have.

But you cannot argue that, "Don't move", is factually correct. That's not an opinion, that's facts, or the lack of such. You are certainly welcome to have an opinion that two plus two equals five, but it's still factually untrue. You can have an opinion that BillyMac lacks math skills and believes that two plus two equals five, and that may certainly be 100% true, but that doesn't mean that two plus two equals five.

Maybe it doesn't belong on the list. Maybe it's wrong to avoid saying it. All valid, and possibly true, opinions. But it still doesn't match the written, and interpreted rules. That's a fact, Jack.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I am neither upset, nor am I irritated. You are entitled to an opinion, but I'm dealing with factual rules here, not opinions. "Don't move" is a factually wrong as telling players to, "Stand behind the division line", during a free throw for a technical foul free throw. It's wrong, and it's wrong.

You can certainly have a valid opinion that it alright to say "Don't move", that it really doesn't effect the outcome of the situation, or the game (although I have given one example of a technical foul charged to a coach because he thought a player "couldn't move", but lets just call that anecdotal evidence, and forget about it). That's an opinion that's alright to have.

But you cannot argue that, "Don't move", is factually correct. That's not an opinion, that's facts, or the lack of such. You are certainly welcome to have an opinion that two plus two equals five, but it's still factually untrue. You can have an opinion that BillyMac lacks math skills and believes that two plus two equals five, and that may certainly be 100% true, but that doesn't mean that two plus two equals five.

Maybe it doesn't belong on the list. Maybe it's wrong to avoid saying it. All valid, and possibly true, opinions. But it still doesn't match the written, and interpreted rules. That's a fact, Jack.

You miss the overall point (once again). We have to communicate many things quickly and precisely and do so using terminology players and coaches would understand. If we don't then we will confuse the people we are talking to. They are not looking to us for a rules clinic or a complete explaination of what the rule is on a throw-in or other things. You used the example of telling players to go to half court, but I have never told any player to go to half court but that is where they tend to end up. I know I tell them usually to just vacate the lane nad where they go after that is their business. This is usually an either/or answer or a statement to convey which kind of throw-in is taking place. And after timeouts it is very common to have a player that is about to throw-in the ball ask, "Can I move?" They are not asking what they can do in a designated spot and likely have never heard the term "designated spot." And I did not say you should or should not say this as well. And I am taking issue with your take on this not because of right and wrong, but why does it matter? It does not matter as no one is that intune to what we are saying that they think, "Well that means I cannot move." Do they think they cannot move their arms or head or the ball because we say, "Don't move" on a throw-in? Funny, I have never had a player feel restricted in what they do. If they do not know what the rule is or their coach has not told them what they cannot do like other aspects of the game, that is not my fault or my responsiblity to teach it to them. And I cannot remember the last time I have ever called a violation or seen a player "not move" to the point they are stagnant or act like if they breathe they will violate some rule. And if I find it necessary, I am still going to say it when approrpirate despite what you suggest Billy. No one in my officiating life has told me or anyone to stop using or not to say this in any way. And I have been to many camps and trainings where this could be discussed or I have been observed as well as others that have said similar things.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You miss the overall point (once again). We have to communicate many things quickly and precisely and do so using terminology players and coaches would understand. If we don't then we will confuse the people we are talking to. They are not looking to us for a rules clinic or a complete explaination of what the rule is on a throw-in or other things.
Peace

Actually, Billy is spot on this time.

It should be our goal to use accurate and brief communications that convey the meaning without implying things that are not true. You may have found a short phrase that is quick and gets your desired results but it over states the requirement. Such things are the genesis of myths and misconceptions. No one says you need to give a complete explanation of the rule is but you shouldn't be stating it in a way that is wrong.

I've T'd a coach over an opponent who "moved" on a spot throw in because he was sure they couldn't "move". Where did he get that idea? From officials who tell the players and coaches "don't move". By saying "don't move" you have confused them, not informed them.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You miss the overall point (once again).

JRutledge: No. You're missing the point. I am agreeing that you may have a valid opinion that, "Don't move", should not be on a list of "Things Officials Should Probably Not Be Saying In A Game", in fact just for the sake of argument, I may agree with you on that, that is, that, "Don't move", should not be on a list of "Things Officials Should Probably Not Be Saying In A Game". There, now we're in agreement in regard to our opinion of said list. Peace.

Let's agree, or, for sake of argument, pretend to agree, for sake of argument, on something else, that there are alternative things to say to player in a designated spot throwin, but, "Don't move" seems to be the quickest, and the best, statement that most efficiently communicates needed information to a player, and to a coach, without holding a rules clinic. So now were in agreement, for sake of argument, on two things. Peace.

Now let's look at some facts, not opinions, but cold facts.

Fact #1: Despite that fact that we agree that, "Don't move", seems to be the quickest, and the best, statement that most efficiently communicates needed information to a player, and to a coach, without holding a rules clinic, it does not match the rules in the rulebook. There are there scenarios where a designated spot inbounder can legally move, within the designated area, a step, either side, outside the designated area, and as far back as can be accomplished in five seconds. These are facts, not opinions.

Fact #2: At least two officials on this Forum, Camron Rust, and BillyMac, have dealt with coaches who took the directive, "Don't move", literally, and were charged with technical fouls for unsporting complaining about opponent players who "moved" on a spot throw in because he was sure they couldn't "move". These are facts, not opinions.

Now that I have validated, and accepted, for sake of argument, that your opinion that, "Don't move", does not belong on a list of "Things Officials Should Probably Not Be Saying In A Game", can you, JRutledge, at least, give me the courtesy of answering the following two questions?

1) Do you dispute that Fact #1 (above) is, indeed, factual?

2) Do you dispute that Fact #2 (above) is, indeed, factual?

What if the list were named: "Things That Officials Say In A Game That Are Not Factually Consistent With The Rules Of The Game Of Basketball, But They Say Them Anyway Because It's The Most Efficient Way To Communicate With Players, and Coaches"?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You used the example of telling players to go to half court, but I have never told any player to go to half court ...

But others have. Please don't tempt me to start a poll asking if any Forum member has ever observed, or worked with, or heard about, an official who directed players to go behind the division line.