T or no T

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Adam

I'm obviously on the fence on whether I'd call the T, but this isn't the standard situation where the player simply can't find the ref or forgets. The new L is clearly (it seems to me) and verbally asking her for the ball when she just plops it down in the corner of the court.

That's not typical, standard behavior in any situation. I've never seen it done. It's essentially the same as throwing it into the corner while the official stands 10 feet away asking for the ball.

Agreed. It's why I said this should have been a T as soon as she did that. She did it to either show displeasure or to show up the officials. Whack her, I say.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Adam

I'm obviously on the fence on whether I'd call the T, but this isn't the standard situation where the player simply can't find the ref or forgets. The new L is clearly (it seems to me) and verbally asking her for the ball when she just plops it down in the corner of the court.

That's not typical, standard behavior in any situation. I've never seen it done. It's essentially the same as throwing it into the corner while the official stands 10 feet away asking for the ball.

Once again I don't see any body language indicating frustration directed towards the refs any more than maybe they are just losing, or shes having a bad game or many other reasons. She might not have heard the ref, but when he did get her attention she just turned and went to the ball. In my experience there would have been a pause, or a shrug, or even a frustrated sigh and hands being thrown up. There isn't enough here, IMO, to say yes or no on the T.

There is enough here to warrant a, "please don't do that again" or "get us the ball next time instead of placing it on the court". but beyond that I'm not sold on a T. And I agree I have never seen this done, especially in such a calm manner, which is why I'm not sold on a T. In the case of throwing the ball in the corner, that's different and very obvious intent.

[just another ref]

As others have said, the rule quoted by Nevada is not a fit-all and cannot be interpreted literally. But whether the player in question is aware of this rule or not, she is not allowed to tear it out of the book, wad it up, and throw it in the official's face, which is what happened here.

T

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

And of course posts like this ( and your earlier ones to deecee) go such a long way towards keeping good young officials involved in the HS game. As you said, you don't give a darn what he thinks, and I would imagine that he doesn't give a darn what you think.

And as a couple others have already pointed out, there is no way you T a player every single time they fail to immediately give the ball to the nearest official after a whistle blows. No. Way.

I quoted the rule to show that there is specific rules support for issuing a T in this case. Naturally, experienced officials know that it isn't adhered to literally, but it is certainly appropriate to invoke when a player is being a PITA, such as the one in the video.

It really bothers me when people advocate officials put up with crap from coaches and players. They make all kinds of excuses such as deecee has done in this thread. What I see is blatant disrespect. For someone who claims to be an official to accuse anyone who would penalize this behavior of being overly officious is stabbing fellow officials in the back. So many of us make a tremendous effort to earn respect that it sickens me to see some (deleted) preaching that an official would be in the wrong to uphold that standard.

[OKREF]

I would most likely give a T here. But, if not, she probably picks up 2 fouls real quick.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Nevadaref, here is what you thought deecee said.





Here is what deecee actually said.

I think you're picking nits. Deecee may have hedged, but Nevada seems to have accurately gauged his meaning, IMO.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The officials should have been looking for anything extra to assess to those players.

Not looking for anything extra, I'm just giving the knucklehead a little more than 10% of my attention (or what ever the average percentage of attention is per player in my primary coverage area). See my post title for some folksy wisdom.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

Throwing it into the corner while the official stands 10 feet away asking for the ball.

Technical foul. Can we close the thread now?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by OKREF

She probably picks up 2 fouls real quick.

That's not what I'm advocating, unless the fouls are real fouls. I'm not making up any fouls, but I'm not going to miss any either.

[hoopguy]

Was the act of deliberately placing the ball on the floor away from the official and walking away from it ever an automatic technical anywhere? I seem to remember reading this as a case or poe somewhere but do not see it in NFHS books I can find. I believe I saw this somewhere but can't find it. Since I can't find it I may just be wrong but was it ever in old NFHS books or college or even NBA?

As far as video being T worthy. Hopefully, I would T the player up for deliberately setting the ball down away from the referrees but if I told the player to go get me the ball and she kicked it in the way of the video then that act would be a T.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by hoopguy

Was the act of deliberately placing the ball on the floor away from the official and walking away from it ever an automatic technical anywhere?...

I don't think you'll find anything that says this act is an "automatic" T.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

That's not what I'm advocating, unless the fouls are real fouls. I'm not making up any fouls, but I'm not going to miss any either.

I didn't say I would make something up. but she does have my attention, and I would not pass on anything involving her.

[Nevadaref]

"Even referees and officials can do a better job, Mano said.

Watch any college basketball game, and odds are you'll see a coach not only stalking the sideline but coming onto the floor to protest a call. That's a violation, Mano said, yet it's almost never called.

"We've softened too much by letting bad behavior go escaped," he said.

It may not seem like much. But add up all the little transgressions that have been overlooked or excused, and sports now has a big problem."
----------------------------------------------
The above quote was taken from this article spawned from the death of a soccer referee: AP News: Ref's death a consequence of lack of sportsmanship

This is the point and what anyone who doesn't issue a technical foul to this player is failing to understand. Be part of the solution, not part of the problem.
Help your fellow officials by insisting upon good sporting behavior and penalize those who don't display such.

[JRutledge]

Giving Ts is always going to be subjective. We all have differnet experience to handle situation. For all we know even in this video the officials might have dealt with that player later or not allowed her to get away with anything. And I bet if she got a T for that, then the next thing you would see a coach complain that the official was over stepping their bounds or making it about them.

It is great to take quotes from an article that do not really mean anything in an unrelated situations. But I do recall that when Bryce Harper was thrown out of a baseball game for a gesture during a ball and strikes dispute, I do recall the media ripping the umpire for "making it about him" or overstepping his authority. And by all accounts the actions of Harper have been considered inappropriate for probably close to a 100 years. But no, the umpire was ripped apart and those never umpired comment aobut how the umpire went "400 feet away" threw out a "star player" that everyone wanted to see. Now this is of course pro sports, but that attitude is not something we all have not dealt with in amateur sports too. And I know that if I had given a T to this player in the vidoe I know some people would claim it was not warranted or that I should have dealt with it another way.

Peace

[BLydic]

Originally Posted by deecee

There is enough here to warrant a, "please don't do that again" or "get us the ball next time instead of placing it on the court". but beyond that I'm not sold on a T.

I agree, I think the official did the right thing by asking her to get the ball and based on the lack of frustration you describe, I'm assuming the new lead asked nicely. I can see a soccer player using their foot to pass the ball to a ref, however, in basketball, I think it's common practice to pick the ball up and bounce, toss or hand it to the official. Kicking it kinda says, "here, you pick it up". That's where I'm sold.