T or no T

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BLydic

I agree, I think the official did the right thing by asking her to get the ball and based on the lack of frustration you describe, I'm assuming the new lead asked nicely. I can see a soccer player using their foot to pass the ball to a ref, however, in basketball, I think it's common practice to pick the ball up and bounce, toss or hand it to the official. Kicking it kinda says, "here, you pick it up". That's where I'm sold.

I look at this play based on the 8 seconds of clip. Heck we don't even see the foul leading up to the play. I don't know if the foul was called on this player. I don't know if this player has been the model citizen all game or not. I dont' know if this same player is really being disrespectful or maybe doesn't know any better (and I can say in my experience in the women's game at the HS players you will get varsity girls who don't know basketball).

Based on all this uncertainty and what was shown on the clip I didn't think THIS was T worthy. Heck if this player was called for the foul and stormed out with the ball and did this then the circumstances change. But I think that unless a supervisor were to address this as either an automatic T either (a) at the placing of the ball on the floor or (b) at the kick (but more like a nudge) of the ball towards the official, I would not be so quick to jump on the T bandwagon here. I would also never get so worked up that my point of view wasn't shared or find the need to resort to more assumptions and name calling.

For the record when I said this could be potentially viewed as overly officious it's what it was. Potentially, it could also be potentially viewed as the right thing to do. The glass is half full and half empty in any discussion involving 2 points of views. My point of view was also supported by evidence, or lack thereof, in the video and 8 seconds of dead ball activity in a vacuum.

What would the consensus be if a TO were called and the player dropped the ball instead of giving it to the official? Do you chase the player down to get you the ball there too?

[Adam]

Dropped? No.
Purposefully placed it down well away from me while I'm clearly calling for the ball? Yes. It's just the same as bouncing it away from me. Best case for the player, they get the opportunity to fix the issue.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BLydic

I can see a soccer player using their foot to pass the ball to a ref, however, in basketball, I think it's common practice to pick the ball up and bounce, toss or hand it to the official. Kicking it kinda says, "here, you pick it up". That's where I'm sold.

I'm sold now.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by deecee

What would the consensus be if a TO were called and the player dropped the ball instead of giving it to the official? Do you chase the player down to get you the ball there too?

Two very different things.

Better situation to compare: timeout is called, and I call out to player "Hey 23, ball please!" and now she sets it down in the corner deliberately and walks away? I will more than likely T her (can't say definitely as it hasn't happened yet)

Again, the biggest thing to me in the OP is that the new L is calling for the ball, and she purposefully sets it down and walks away. That is absolutely a "F-ck you" action from that player.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Two very different things.

Better situation to compare: timeout is called, and I call out to player "Hey 23, ball please!" and now she sets it down in the corner deliberately and walks away? I will more than likely T her (can't say definitely as it hasn't happened yet)

Again, the biggest thing to me in the OP is that the new L is calling for the ball, and she purposefully sets it down and walks away. That is absolutely a "F-ck you" action from that player.

I agree, but we don't know nor can we tell how loud he is asking (I have worked with quiet talkers) and it is clear she doesn't see him. Once she does notice she just turns and heads towards the ball. In my experience this is the calmest "showing up" an official I have ever seen. She just looks clueless from this clip and doesn't come off like its attitude laden. I mean its 8 seconds of video, I wish there was some context.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by deecee

I agree, but we don't know nor can we tell how loud he is asking (I have worked with quiet talkers) and it is clear she doesn't see him. Once she does notice she just turns and heads towards the ball. In my experience this is the calmest "showing up" an official I have ever seen. She just looks clueless from this clip and doesn't come off like its attitude laden. I mean its 8 seconds of video, I wish there was some context.

I get that...but sometimes context isn't needed to say "That ain't right"...that's what I (and others) am saying here.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by deecee

I agree, but we don't know nor can we tell how loud he is asking (I have worked with quiet talkers) and it is clear she doesn't see him. Once she does notice she just turns and heads towards the ball. In my experience this is the calmest "showing up" an official I have ever seen. She just looks clueless from this clip and doesn't come off like its attitude laden. I mean its 8 seconds of video, I wish there was some context.

And that is a fair assement of the video. But my experiece tells me that this was a rather disrespectful response. Now as I have said I probably would give a T but I could see myself as finding anotehr way. I worked with someone this year in a college game that told the guy "You better pick that ball up or I am giving you a T." The player went and got the ball and gave it to him. The official is a D1 guy (not that the player knew this) and I am sure he would have been supported by the supervisor. Context does matter, but who you work for and who you are might matter too.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by OKREF

I didn't say I would make something up, but she does have my attention, and I would not pass on anything involving her.

Then we're both on the same page. Just don't spread the word around. Most Forum members don't even like to be in the same thread as me.

("A man is known by the company he keeps.", The Ass and His Purchaser, Aesop's Fable)

[Multiple Sports]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And that is a fair assement of the video. But my experiece tells me that this was a rather disrespectful response. Now as I have said I probably would give a T but I could see myself as finding anotehr way. I worked with someone this year in a college game that told the guy "You better pick that ball up or I am giving you a T." The player went and got the ball and gave it to him. The official is a D1 guy (not that the player knew this) and I am sure he would have been supported by the supervisor. Context does matter, but who you work for and who you are might matter too.

Peace

Rut - Great point about who you work for.....most hs assigners I would think don't want a T on this play. however I bet you over 90% of small college basketball officials working this game would call a T and 100% of D1 officials.

[Rob1968]

Originally Posted by deecee

I agree, but we don't know nor can we tell how loud he is asking (I have worked with quiet talkers) and it is clear she doesn't see him. Once she does notice she just turns and heads towards the ball. In my experience this is the calmest "showing up" an official I have ever seen. She just looks clueless from this clip and doesn't come off like its attitude laden. I mean its 8 seconds of video, I wish there was some context.

Some of the context of this situation is discernible: 2nd half of the ballgame; player heads towards her bench. So, she probably has 2 or more fouls and knew she would sit, due to this foul call and her coach's philosophy. The official, if he thought to T her for her actions, knew it would further affect her playing, and might incite her coach to complain about being too strict. And thinking that she was going to sit, anyway, he may have thought to not T her, but just comment to her as she passed by him.
I work for an assignor who would definitely consider a T in this situation to be excessive, unfortunately.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

Some of the context of this situation is discernible: 2nd half of the ballgame; player heads towards her bench. So, she probably has 2 or more fouls and knew she would sit, due to this foul call and her coach's philosophy. The official, if he thought to T her for her actions, knew it would further affect her playing, and might incite her coach to complain about being too strict. And thinking that she was going to sit, anyway, he may have thought to not T her, but just comment to her as she passed by him.
I work for an assignor who would definitely consider a T in this situation to be excessive, unfortunately.

This may surprise some here but I don't make calls bf on you're I think a player or coach would feel or react. I also don't care of a player's foul count when making a call.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

Some of the context of this situation is discernible: 2nd half of the ballgame; player heads towards her bench. So, she probably has 2 or more fouls and knew she would sit, due to this foul call and her coach's philosophy. The official, if he thought to T her for her actions, knew it would further affect her playing, and might incite her coach to complain about being too strict. And thinking that she was going to sit, anyway, he may have thought to not T her, but just comment to her as she passed by him.
I work for an assignor who would definitely consider a T in this situation to be excessive, unfortunately.

Sad.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by deecee

I don't make calls bf on you're I think a player or coach would feel or react.

Anyone have a clue how to decipher this?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by deecee

This may surprise some here but I don't make calls bf on you're I think a player or coach would feel or react. I also don't care of a player's foul count when making a call.

Can you please re-word that first sentence?

[deecee]

Doh, that teaches me to post while mobile. I meant to say I don't care on what they may say or feel when making a call