Syracuse-Indiana clips(s)

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And once again, a lot of high school officials call anything looking funny to them as a travel. You even used a standard that was not rule based and now because there is a still picture that shows a foot on the ground, but we cannot see control, now I am supposed to agree with the announcers?

I have said this before, if you have to slow something down to determine something, then it is not obvious enough to call. And it was not obvious (it still isn't). And if guys are calling this, they will call ones that are not there because of how it looks and not what actually happened.

This play looks like a video I showed a while ago.

Peace

I agree with all the philosophy stuff you've been saying.

But, this one was obvious to me. I saw the posted play. I judged it to be a travel. Then I read the first few comments about how it wasn't. I went back for a closer look. Still a travel to me.

And, just becasue someone did (or might) call this one does NOT mean that they are guessing and might get some others wrong.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I agree with all the philosophy stuff you've been saying.

But, this one was obvious to me. I saw the posted play. I judged it to be a travel. Then I read the first few comments about how it wasn't. I went back for a closer look. Still a travel to me.

And, just becasue someone did (or might) call this one does NOT mean that they are guessing and might get some others wrong.

Bob, when I have run camps and had HS officials call travels, I often ask them "Which foot was the pivot foot?" Do you realize most look at me with the "I don't know stare." May point is if you are going to call a travel, say why it was a travel, not tell me things that, "He took too many steps" or " "Well he moved from outside the 3 point line." If it was obvious, then that would have never been stated. If it was obvious then you those would have said, The left foot is the pivot foot and he put it back down after he had control. Honestly I think people here got "lucky" rather than knowing why it was a travel.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is a travel in your judgment, do not speak for the rest of us or claim that this has to have a call. We do not officiating in still photos and honestly I do not see a foot clearly on the floor and I do not see clear possession. It is a still photo, it is not how we call the game.

Peace

We get it. You don't want to call travels. That's OK. You've clearly established that you will look for every reason not to call a travel, even ignoring clear facts.

Yes, it often takes judgement at full speed to make decisions on plays like this and that judgement can lead to no travel call. However, what takes judgement at full speed can sometimes be determined objectively in slow-motion and the correct ruling might disagree with what could be confidently determined at full speed.

It really isn't judgement anymore when the video and still frame evidence show everything you need to see to determine if it is or isn't a travel. At live speed, I was unsure on this one and would have not called a travel.

However, the video and the still clearly show that his left foot was on the floor (to disagree with that with the given evidence is simply preposterous) while the ball was at rest in his hand. He did not put the ball down for another dribble and didn't fumble/muff it. If, at that point, he hasn't caught it (holding it), what, by definition, is he doing with it???. And once it is caught/at rest, as it is in this play, the foot on the floor is, by definition (not judgement) the pivot.

Again, it is not unreasonable that these sorts of plays might not be caught at live speed, but it is just silly to keep claiming that these sorts plays are not travels just because they are hard to see at full speed. They're just missed....and understandably missed....but still travels.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Bob, when I have run camps and had HS officials call travels, I often ask them "Which foot was the pivot foot?" Do you realize most look at me with the "I don't know stare." May point is if you are going to call a travel, say why it was a travel, not tell me things that, "He took too many steps" or " "Well he moved from outside the 3 point line." If it was obvious, then that would have never been stated. If it was obvious then you those would have said, The left foot is the pivot foot and he put it back down after he had control. Honestly I think people here got "lucky" rather than knowing why it was a travel.

Peace

I do realize that, and I've seen that stare.

But all(?) who in this thread are claiming it was a travel are pretty clearly saying it's because the left foot was the pivot and was put back on the ground.

The announcers, on the other hand, ...

[JRutledge]

Cameron,

I call probably more travels than anyone on this site. I have seen myself on tape multiple times and call more travels than my partners or identify the obvious ones in dual coverage areas. So no you would be wrong about what I think about calling travels. I believe I even shared a situation this post season where I was the only one out of the three of my crew in a playoff game that called the same move a travel on a big man and I got crap for it. And I looked at the plays on tape and saw every one again as I did in the game. I just identify the pivot foot when I do and watch what they do with that foot and do not guess what I "think" happened.

And yes it is still a judgment, because we do not have all angles of this play. We have a still where it appears the player has both hands on the ball when it was stated earlier he had complete control before that. So yes these are still judgment calls. Maybe to you it is not because you officiate plays with pictures, but it would still be a judgment with multiple angles as to when a player has the ball in their hands or has ended their dribble.

It is silly to say that it is "obvious" when the people that said so could not tell us for the most part why by rule it was a travel when they first saw the play. Again, we call the game in live action, not by pictures and slowed down action. And we also get one shot to make that determination, not several shots at the bite of the apple to make sure you got it correct.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I do realize that, and I've seen that stare.

But all(?) who in this thread are claiming it was a travel are pretty clearly saying it's because the left foot was the pivot and was put back on the ground.

The announcers, on the other hand, ...

All of them did not state that Bob. Some even said they had nothing until it was shown slowed down and the still. Again, we get one shot, not 20 looks.

Peace

[just another ref]

It is possible to correctly call a travel and never know which foot was the pivot.

Player catches the ball with one or both feet on the floor, does a 360 degree spin and winds up several feet away with both feet on the floor again prior to releasing a shot. This is a travel, whether I actually saw his feet move or not. If you want to put it that way, the call was (correctly) made "because it looked funny."

This, in my opinion, is considerably better than missing the call, for whatever reason.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Cameron,

I call probably more travels than anyone on this site. I have seen myself on tape multiple times and call more travels than my partners or identify the obvious ones in dual coverage areas. So no you would be wrong about what I think about calling travels. I believe I even shared a situation this post season where I was the only one out of the three of my crew in a playoff game that called the same move a travel on a big man and I got crap for it. And I looked at the plays on tape and saw every one again as I did in the game. I just identify the pivot foot when I do and watch what they do with that foot and do not guess what I "think" happened.

And yes it is still a judgment, because we do not have all angles of this play. We have a still where it appears the player has both hands on the ball when it was stated earlier he had complete control before that. So yes these are still judgment calls. Maybe to you it is not because you officiate plays with pictures, but it would still be a judgment with multiple angles as to when a player has the ball in their hands or has ended their dribble.

It is silly to say that it is "obvious" when the people that said so could not tell us for the most part why by rule it was a travel when they first saw the play. Again, we call the game in live action, not by pictures and slowed down action. And we also get one shot to make that determination, not several shots at the bite of the apple to make sure you got it correct.

Peace

You're talking to me. I didn't need the video. I saw it as a travel while watching the game. Yes I know the reason it was a travel, the pivot foot left the floor and returned before passing or shooting, after he stopped his dribble. In the still, it doesn't appear that the player has both hands on the ball with his left foot on the floor. It is a fact, and for you to continue to deny that is simply a farce.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I do realize that, and I've seen that stare.

But all(?) who in this thread are claiming it was a travel are pretty clearly saying it's because the left foot was the pivot and was put back on the ground.

The announcers, on the other hand, ...

Semantics?

How can you take the third alternating-foot step without putting your pivot foot down again?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by OKREF

You're talking to me. I didn't need the video. I saw it as a travel while watching the game. Yes I know the reason it was a travel, the pivot foot left the floor and returned before passing or shooting, after he stopped his dribble. In the still, it doesn't appear that the player has both hands on the ball with his left foot on the floor. It is a fact, and for you to continue to deny that is simply a farce.

I am glad you did not need the video, I am glad you call every possible travel, but this misses the point I am making. I do not feel it was obvious. And if you are telling me that you and others would see the toes of a ball handler on the floor the very moment there was contact with the ball that ended the dribble, more power to you. I just do not believe you that you would get that or that you would not guess on many of these types of plays. And I also do not think that it was missed on purpose as if there is some larger conspiracy to not call travels. I see a lot of travels called at this level. Watch the Michigan-Kansas game there were a lot of travels called in that game. I do think some officials are better at getting them as others. But do not tell me I have to agree with you on a still photo. I never think that is a good way to determine something and have said that for years on this site, long before you got here. That is not going to change. And when I teach these things, I keep reminding officials that we do not get the opportunity to watch the video in several slow motion ways and different angles. I guess I just hate the self-righteous attitude becuase you think is obvious that everyone else feels the same way. And I really find that funny for those that do not work that level or any college ball on that level. Heck even certain HS players these are tough plays.

Peace

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am glad you did not need the video

Thank you.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Thank you.

Well you know you are one of those people that seem to find a travel in everything, so why am I not surprised.

Peace

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well you know you are one of those people that seem to find a travel in everything, so why am I not surprised.

Peace

Nothing to go find. It was a travel. You seem to be one of those people who can't admit their wrong. Have a nice day.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Nothing to go find. It was a travel. You seem to be one of those people who can't admit their wrong. Have a nice day.

I did not expect you to get the joke. And it was not for your eyes anyway.

And if you were confident that it was a travel, you would have stuck with rulebook language to describe what happened. You and others did not do that, which tells me it was not "obvious." You guess and you got proof you wanted. Oh well, I hope you give a coach more information than what distance he traveled and it was not even accurate.

Peace

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by OKREF

I thought play one was a travel when I saw it live. In my humble opinion the replay confirms it for me. He picks the ball up with his left foot on the floor. steps with right, steps with left and doesn't shoot or pass before it hits again.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I did not expect you to get the joke. And it was not for your eyes anyway.

And if you were confident that it was a travel, you would have stuck with rulebook language to describe what happened. You and others did not do that, which tells me it was not "obvious." You guess and you got proof you wanted. Oh well, I hope you give a coach more information than what distance he traveled and it was not even accurate.

Peace

Once again read my first post in this thread. I never said anything about distance traveled at any time in this whole conversation. I did say he took to many steps, in a later post, but also said that was a bad choice of words.