The butt bumping thread

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by #olderthanilook

One of the best one word answers to use with a coach when they ask "how was that a foul? All he did was box out?". The look on their face is priceless as they try to digest what they've just been told.

I had one of those this year. A-1 shoots, A-2 uses her body to push B-3 about 6-7 feet at the time of my whistle.

Me (reporting): "Blue, (A-2), pushing."
A-2: "Coach, I don't know what I did wrong!"
Coach A: "What did she do wrong?"
Me: "Displacement, sir."
Coach A: "Did she push with her body or her arms?"
Me: "Body."

The coach had a "but, that's legal!" look in his eye. He called me over at halftime to address it some more. The bottom line is that he's been teaching those kids that you can use your body to "box out." Again, I pushed the word "displacement," and the reply was "Right, I understand that, BUT..."

Uh, no, you don't, sir.

A veteran official I respect heavily put it this way, "Boxing out is screening, not displacing." I can't think of a more succinct manner than that.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

A veteran official I respect heavily put it this way, "Boxing out is screening, not displacing." I can't think of a more succinct manner than that.

Simply using the word isn't going to get a coach to magically understand. If he's been teaching the kids it's ok to move the opponent as long as they have inside position, giving him a new word of the day isn't going to change his mind.

I just go straight to, "coach, boxing out is holding your position, not moving the other guy out of his."

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I had one of those this year. A-1 shoots, A-2 uses her body to push B-3 about 6-7 feet at the time of my whistle.

Me (reporting): "Blue, (A-2), pushing."
A-2: "Coach, I don't know what I did wrong!"
Coach A: "What did she do wrong?"
Me: "Displacement, sir."
Coach A: "Did she push with her body or her arms?"
Me: "Body."

The coach had a "but, that's legal!" look in his eye. He called me over at halftime to address it some more. The bottom line is that he's been teaching those kids that you can use your body to "box out." Again, I pushed the word "displacement," and the reply was "Right, I understand that, BUT..."

Uh, no, you don't, sir.

A veteran official I respect heavily put it this way, "Boxing out is screening, not displacing." I can't think of a more succinct manner than that.

I had a rebounding situation earlier this season in a BV game in which B2 moves his body, butt first, into airborne A2 who was jumping for a rebound. B2 basically undercut A2 by moving into and displacing him.

Tweet.

Push on B2. A ball at the spot.

Kid looks at me with that "what did I do" look.

You moved him.
I blocked him out.
Blocking out is not displacing your opponent.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by #olderthanilook

I had a rebounding situation earlier this season in a BV game in which B2 moves his body, butt first, into airborne A2 who was jumping for a rebound. B2 basically undercut A2 by moving into and displacing him.

Tweet.

Push on B2. A ball at the spot.

Kid looks at me with that "what did I do" look.

You moved him.
I blocked him out.
Blocking out is not displacing your opponent.

I had this exact same play. Long rebound, outside player jumps, inside guy moves underneath him and cuts the player coming down. I called a foul. Coach could not understand why it was a foul. Said his player had inside position. I said yes he did, but he moved underneath the other player. He said, thats just blocking out, we had inside position. He just couldn't understand. Next time out he asks me again. I just couldn't make him understand.

[potato]

most of the discussion is related to boxing out & displacement, however would you guys call it as a foul when:

Offense has the ball and is under the rim, Defense is behind him close & arms high sealing off the ball path to the basket. Offense does a pump fake crouch movement & uses the butt's natural motion to give the defender a bump on the belly or crouch (you know some guys love to stick out their butt when pump faking), the defender kept his position but the bump caused him to loosen his defense and offense gets a clear shooting path.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by potato

most of the discussion is related to boxing out & displacement, however would you guys call it as a foul when:

Offense has the ball and is under the rim, Defense is behind him close & arms high sealing off the ball path to the basket. Offense does a pump fake crouch movement & uses the butt's natural motion to give the defender a bump on the belly or crouch (you know some guys love to stick out their butt when pump faking), the defender kept his position but the bump caused him to loosen his defense and offense gets a clear shooting path.

HTBT. I don't understand "kept his position" but "caused him to loosen his defense". Those seem contradictory to me.

Clearly, I've called PC fouls for clearing out with a shoulder or other body part before rising to take a jump shot.

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

HTBT. I don't understand "kept his position" but "caused him to loosen his defense". Those seem contradictory to me.

Clearly, I've called PC fouls for clearing out with a shoulder or other body part before rising to take a jump shot.

potato, as others have already suggested, the best way to look at any play scenario is from a very basic premise as opposed to "what if" and "what if".

Use the KISS method.

Mastering the concepts of verticality, legal guarding position and displacement will help you analyze and correctly answer just about any question that relates to physical contact on the basketball court.

[potato]

here is their position:

Basket & Board, Offense, Defense.

A1 grabs the rebound, D1 is behind him standing tall & firm arms up to block A1's shooting path, A1 does a pump fake and sticks out his butt and bumps D1, D1 is standing strong but the bump into his tummy or crouch depending on the players high stunned D1, giving A1 a good opportunity to shoot & score. It takes pretty much 1-2 seconds to do such feat.

Have you ever been bumped by the strong pump fake butt bump, it's pretty much like a punch to the tummy but hurt less because the butt surface area is bigger & has more flesh to cushion the impact.

In this case i would say the butt invaded the D1's verticality & made contact with him, however since it's a pump fake it may be incidental? Sometimes case scenario is a good way to explain written rules, that is how they teach law anyway, by using case studies.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by potato

Have you ever been bumped by the strong pump fake butt bump.

No. If it happened, I would be way the hell out of position. And I'd probably have an ejection for striking an official.

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by potato

here is their position:

Basket & Board, Offense, Defense.

A1 grabs the rebound, D1 is behind him standing tall & firm arms up to block A1's shooting path, A1 does a pump fake and sticks out his butt and bumps D1, D1 is standing strong but the bump into his tummy or crouch depending on the players high stunned D1, giving A1 a good opportunity to shoot & score. It takes pretty much 1-2 seconds to do such feat.

Have you ever been bumped by the strong pump fake butt bump, it's pretty much like a punch to the tummy but hurt less because the butt surface area is bigger & has more flesh to cushion the impact.

In this case i would say the butt invaded the D1's verticality & made contact with him, however since it's a pump fake it may be incidental? Sometimes case scenario is a good way to explain written rules, that is how they teach law anyway, by using case studies.

I'm sorry....I'm literally laughing out loud right now..."tummy" and "crouch"...seems like I'm reading a 12 year olds posts. Or an adult that is purposefully trying to keep everyone guessing.

Anyway, I don't know about anyone else, but that already sounds like D1 has lost verticality before the pump fake happens. Yet, there's no contact in the description, so no foul. Your scenario has to be a "HTBT" because I just cannot envision A1 with his back to the rim in the paint bending in half and shoving his fleshy butt into D1's tummy and crouch.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by potato

here is their position:

Basket & Board, Offense, Defense.

A1 grabs the rebound, D1 is behind him standing tall & firm arms up to block A1's shooting path, A1 does a pump fake and sticks out his butt and bumps D1, D1 is standing strong but the bump into his tummy or crouch depending on the players high stunned D1, giving A1 a good opportunity to shoot & score. It takes pretty much 1-2 seconds to do such feat.

Have you ever been bumped by the strong pump fake butt bump, it's pretty much like a punch to the tummy but hurt less because the butt surface area is bigger & has more flesh to cushion the impact.

In this case i would say the butt invaded the D1's verticality & made contact with him, however since it's a pump fake it may be incidental? Sometimes case scenario is a good way to explain written rules, that is how they teach law anyway, by using case studies.

B1 (our shorthand for the on-ball defender) will not be able to block A1's "shooting path" from behind without breaking his own verticality. A1 has no need to bump him out of position, unless he's too far under the basket already. In that case, we'll call the displacement.

But, in your scenario, A1 bumps B1 without moving him. I'm not likely to call it unless he keeps trying to move B1.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by potato

most of the discussion is related to boxing out & displacement, however would you guys call it as a foul when:

Offense has the ball and is under the rim, Defense is behind him close & arms high sealing off the ball path to the basket. Offense does a pump fake crouch movement & uses the butt's natural motion to give the defender a bump on the belly or crouch (you know some guys love to stick out their butt when pump faking), the defender kept his position but the bump caused him to loosen his defense and offense gets a clear shooting path.

By the time all this happened, you'd have a 3 second call.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by potato

most of the discussion is related to boxing out & displacement, however would you guys call it as a foul when ...

Ball-Handler / Hand-Checking
Any illegal use of hands, arms or body, offense or defense, that slows, prevents, impedes the progress, or
displaces an opposing player, due to the contact, is a foul and must be called. When a player places both
hands on a ball-handler, it is a foul. When a player continuously places a hand on the ball handler, it is a foul.
When a player continuously jabs a hand or forearm on a ball-handler, it is a foul. When a player jabs a hand,
or forearm, on an opponent to control his or her movement or gain an advantage, it is a foul. If the dribbler’s
rhythm, speed, balance, or quickness are affected, we should have a hand-checking foul. Tactics using the
hands, arms or body that permit any player, offense or defense, to control (hold, impede, push, divert, slow
or prevent) the movement of an opposing player is a foul.

Post Play
As lead, let’s find the post matchup as soon as possible so that we get the first foul. When a player uses hands,
forearms, or elbows to prevent an opponent from maintaining a legal position, it is a foul. When a player
dislodges an opponent from an established position by pushing or backing in, it is a foul. Let’s not allow a
defender to use a leg or knee to move a player off the block. When the defense undercuts, initiates lower
body non-vertical contact, slaps, pushes, holds, elbows, forearms or just generally demonstrates rough,
physical movements or tactics, this is a foul on the defense. Let’s make sure the offensive player isn’t holding
off the defender, or holding him with his off-hand. When the offensive player then uses the swim stroke,
pushes, pins, elbows, forearms, holds, clears with the body, or just generally demonstrates rough physical
movements or tactics, this is a foul on the offensive player. Don’t let players redirect, impede, displace, or
dislodge.

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Ball-Handler / Hand-Checking
Any illegal use of hands, arms or body, offense or defense, that slows, prevents, impedes the progress, or
displaces an opposing player, due to the contact, is a foul and must be called. When a player places both
hands on a ball-handler, it is a foul. When a player continuously places a hand on the ball handler, it is a foul.
When a player continuously jabs a hand or forearm on a ball-handler, it is a foul. When a player jabs a hand,
or forearm, on an opponent to control his or her movement or gain an advantage, it is a foul. If the dribbler’s
rhythm, speed, balance, or quickness are affected, we should have a hand-checking foul. Tactics using the
hands, arms or body that permit any player, offense or defense, to control (hold, impede, push, divert, slow
or prevent) the movement of an opposing player is a foul.

Post Play
As lead, let’s find the post matchup as soon as possible so that we get the first foul. When a player uses hands,
forearms, or elbows to prevent an opponent from maintaining a legal position, it is a foul. When a player
dislodges an opponent from an established position by pushing or backing in, it is a foul. Let’s not allow a
defender to use a leg or knee to move a player off the block. When the defense undercuts, initiates lower
body non-vertical contact, slaps, pushes, holds, elbows, forearms or just generally demonstrates rough,
physical movements or tactics, this is a foul on the defense. Let’s make sure the offensive player isn’t holding
off the defender, or holding him with his off-hand. When the offensive player then uses the swim stroke,
pushes, pins, elbows, forearms, holds, clears with the body, or just generally demonstrates rough physical
movements or tactics, this is a foul on the offensive player. Don’t let players redirect, impede, displace, or
dislodge.

Pure gold...even thought the words "butt", "crouch" and "tummy" are not used.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by #olderthanilook

Pure gold...even though the words "butt", "crouch" and "tummy" are not used.

Hey, I can add them if you want. Or, even better, copy, and paste, the two paragraphs, and edit it yourself, adding as many butts, crouches, and tummies as you want. Go ahead. Knock yourself out.